Is the 3v3 and 4v4 general balance ever going to be fixed?

Just watch the tournament vods and skip to the tank engagements.

Axis don't have it easier per say just in randoms more coordination is needed with ally players. As for it being as simple as breaking it down to just early game and late game, at low level randoms yeah but it's simply not like that in high level team games, in most cases the early game is pretty close and mid game is where it is really decided.

Agreed. Yet we can't argue for the rest of the community's 4v4 with randoms capabilities based upon what the top 200 players in 4v4 do.

4v4 will remain unbalanced, because you can so much stuff on the field that it is impossible to balance everything out. I rather, to be truely honest, have 1v1 balanced out than ever having 4v4 come close to being balanced.

Agreed. Yet we can't argue for the rest of the community's 4v4 with randoms capabilities based upon what the top 200 players in 4v4 do.

4v4 will remain unbalanced, because you can so much stuff on the field that it is impossible to balance everything out. I rather, to be truely honest, have 1v1 balanced out than ever having 4v4 come close to being balanced.

Too bad the mojority of multiplayer players don't give a shit about 1v1,but lets screw them anyway and continue pandering to the niche minority.

I don't think 4v4 will ever be a competitive mode. But there are plenty of changes that could be made to make 4v4 more fair and fun. 1v1 is already pretty well balanced, it doesn't need that much work. 4v4 could still use a lot.

The only people saying that we should do nothing are selfish players that don't play it and don't want relic spending time fixing stuff that doesn't effect them, or those that want to keep their 4v4 german slaughter mode. Both of which are jerks who shouldn't get what they want.

Too bad the mojority of multiplayer players don't give a shit about 1v1,but lets screw them anyway and continue pandering to the niche minority.

I don't think 4v4 will ever be a competitive mode. But there are plenty of changes that could be made to make 4v4 more fair and fun. 1v1 is already pretty well balanced, it doesn't need that much work. 4v4 could still use a lot.

The only people saying that we should do nothing are selfish players that don't play it and don't want relic spending time fixing stuff that doesn't effect them, or those that want to keep their 4v4 german slaughter mode. Both of which are jerks who shouldn't get what they want.

Now now I never said such a thing, nor do I think purely about myself when saying this. But if 1v1 gets balanced, 4v4 can get full attention from the balancing team. 1v1 is easier to balance, so it would make sense to balance it out.

Once 1v1 is balanced, they can easily put their full efforts into 4v4 balancing, which will require more work than 1v1.

Too bad the mojority of multiplayer players don't give a shit about 1v1

When will the stupid meme die? 1v1 and 2v2 have been the most competitive and fun game modes to play and watch since CoH1. There isn't a single RTS in the universe were people give a shit about 3v3 and 4v4.

When will the stupid meme die? 1v1 and 2v2 have been the most competitive and fun game modes to play and watch since CoH1. There isn't a single RTS in the universe were people give a shit about 3v3 and 4v4.

Sorry to say this, but I think this goes more to proving his point that disproving it. It is possible he overstated it. Most care that 1v1 be balanced, but are irritated/frustrated/maddened that people belittle even making the attempt to balance larger game modes.

3v3s and 4v4s wrack up more player hours by far than 1v1s and 2v2s. By an objective definition, that means more people who play games like it better. And that is despite them not being "competitive" or balanced. Add in 2v2s and probably you are including 90% or more of the hours spent playing this game.

As to comparisons to other RTS games.... this isn't like other RTS games. We all know that and that is why we are all here.

When will the stupid meme die? 1v1 and 2v2 have been the most competitive and fun game modes to play and watch since CoH1. There isn't a single RTS in the universe were people give a shit about 3v3 and 4v4.

It's not a meme. Most players play 4v4 and don't ever touch 1v1. That's been shown by player statistics many times. It's especially true for COH2 which has a relatively small competitive community.

I'm not saying 1v1 shouldn't be the focus. Just that 4v4 shouldn't be outright ignored. Relic apparently thinks the same seeing as they have made changes directed at 4v4s in the past. And have deliberately designed the british to complement the allied side for large team game, they have in fact said this themselves in streams.

When will the stupid meme die? 1v1 and 2v2 have been the most competitive and fun game modes to play and watch since CoH1. There isn't a single RTS in the universe were people give a shit about 3v3 and 4v4.

1- Not since Dota and LoL 5vs5 players dominate the competitive scene. Mentality is changing and following those 2 games (and their other equivalent), people are most likely to be interested in teamgame and teamplay than only 1vs1. Same if teamplay means random team vs random team.

2- In the past, 1vs1 "appealing" was also most likely due to poor connectivity and computer capabilities. Running a 4vs4 SC or Coh1 wasn't something everybody could do 4-5 years ago. Today, apart from a bad configured 3dengine, nothing stop the majority of players playing 4vs4.

3- You are losing nothing, someone good in 1vs1 have greater chance to be good also in 4vs4. Micro and macro are dealt at another level. of course there are exception but those doesn't make the rule.

4- SC2 brought some good new concept with the base/resource sharing between team mates. Coh2 is still late and doesn't innovate enough in my opinion. Example, Attrition mod is really interesting but because it still an "unofficial" mod, it is not enough promoted and so cannot be improve and so bring more innovation and etc...

-5 Social aspect, team vs team bring more drama, more social, more interest to the community, so community has more interest and so can grow bigger.


Like I said, I think by the fact Relic isn't innovating in the game mode available and unable to improve the 4vs4 experience, they are restraining their own community in it potential expansion. People are bored of only watching competitive 1vs1 (same if it is always good to watch), they want to feel the other aspects of the game with large move, team play, simultaneous micro and macro etc...

Okay to start DOTA is not an RTS at all. But my point is that player base wise when it comes to balancing around competitiveness far more "good" players play 1v1 and 2v2; and the large disconnect between those modes and 3v3 and 4v4 can be seen in how very good (as in top 10) players from 1v1 and 2v2 got raped in 3v3 and 4v4 in the past tournament because the other team simply coordinated more.

Basically you win team games by playing as a team; Relic can't balance the fact in randoms people don't play like a team. You can make cooperation and synergy more intuitive and less abstract but that's about it.

The one thing you can fix while not fucking over 1v1 and 2v2 is the maps. 3v3 and 4v4 maps are hot flaming garbage that look and feel like they were designed by someone who enjoys making people suffer.

As to comparisons to other RTS games.... this isn't like other RTS games. We all know that and that is why we are all here.

Just because the RTS genre has been laying in a shallow grave for a while doesn't mean CoH is super extra special.

double the late game tank options for axis, vet 5 infantry, better commanders CAS and always little quirks like that for instance soviet lend lease planes having to fly from the enemy side but luftwaffe supply does not. Chokepoint 3v3 and 4v4 maps that promote axis camping, but perhaps the brits will change this with there emplacements. USF still needs a pershing.

1- Not since Dota and LoL 5vs5 players dominate the competitive scene. Mentality is changing and following those 2 games (and their other equivalent), people are most likely to be interested in teamgame and teamplay than only 1vs1. Same if teamplay means random team vs random team.

2- In the past, 1vs1 "appealing" was also most likely due to poor connectivity and computer capabilities. Running a 4vs4 SC or Coh1 wasn't something everybody could do 4-5 years ago. Today, apart from a bad configured 3dengine, nothing stop the majority of players playing 4vs4.

3- You are losing nothing, someone good in 1vs1 have greater chance to be good also in 4vs4. Micro and macro are dealt at another level. of course there are exception but those doesn't make the rule.

4- SC2 brought some good new concept with the base/resource sharing between team mates. Coh2 is still late and doesn't innovate enough in my opinion. Example, Attrition mod is really interesting but because it still an "unofficial" mod, it is not enough promoted and so cannot be improve and so bring more innovation and etc...

-5 Social aspect, team vs team bring more drama, more social, more interest to the community, so community has more interest and so can grow bigger.




Like I said, I think by the fact Relic isn't innovating in the game mode available and unable to improve the 4vs4 experience, they are restraining their own community in it potential expansion. People are bored of only watching competitive 1vs1 (same if it is always good to watch), they want to feel the other aspects of the game with large move, team play, simultaneous micro and macro etc...

Well said, great post.
You nailed it, thank you.

the thing is, a competitive RTS like coh2 focusing on 2v2 or even 4v4 would be a joy to play. however, coh2 was made primarily with 1v1 and 1v1 only competitiveness in mind as it seems.

another thing is, although coh2 4v4 can never be as polished and well functioning as 1v1, there are steps relic can take to make 4v4 more competitive than now.

The PROBLEM is relic ignores 3v3+. How long to fix opel blitz? How many months did 4v4 players had to be satisfied with 4 maps?!?!?

I think they got a little better, I mean there were reasonable number of 3v3+ maps in WFA and are in TBF. But that is not saying much.