It's not that hard to balance it you know, the question is : Are they willing to do so?
All they need is to design something like LARGE GAME MODE in which some mechanics are different. Like Cache resource sharing, general income, unit prices or even unit stats (Not a fan of this one though). Most important of all is to manipulate economy. Do it and a lot of problems will be solved.
Is the 3v3 and 4v4 general balance ever going to be fixed?
29 Aug 2015, 05:25 AM
#21
Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1
29 Aug 2015, 08:50 AM
#22
Posts: 509
Its a damn hard mode to balance. But, on the plus side, UKF will help. They have a massively strong lategame
29 Aug 2015, 09:25 AM
#23
1 
Posts: 764
Large modes are mostly balanced. They just yield synergies more easily.
If i may ask: what is your actual problem in large team games?
If i may ask: what is your actual problem in large team games?
29 Aug 2015, 09:42 AM
#24
Posts: 830
You will never have balance in these kind of game modes. On top of that, Axis got a more powerful late game, Allies have an overwhelming early game.
Nothing favors a specific faction apart from maps. If you are fighting with randoms vs a random team, it is up for grabs. Allies can overwhelm Axis in the early game and Axis can overwhelm Allies in the late game. Always has been like this, always will be like this.
Nothing favors a specific faction apart from maps. If you are fighting with randoms vs a random team, it is up for grabs. Allies can overwhelm Axis in the early game and Axis can overwhelm Allies in the late game. Always has been like this, always will be like this.
29 Aug 2015, 09:44 AM
#25
1 Posts: 764
...
Nothing favors a specific faction apart from maps. ...
* and match making
29 Aug 2015, 09:48 AM
#26
Posts: 830
* and match making
You can get complete and utter irrational retards with Allies and Axis. Matchmaking can favor a team based on what it finds, it doesn't favor a specific faction.
29 Aug 2015, 09:59 AM
#27
1 Posts: 764
You can get complete and utter irrational retards with Allies and Axis. Matchmaking can favor a team based on what it finds, it doesn't favor a specific faction.
This is partly correct.
The likelihood of getting worse enemies is heavily increased on Allies side sadly - thanks to the lack of any hard cap limit with the MM search.
Check out http://coh2chart.com/, or the leaderboards here. Those win ratios for randoms are not due balance. My own little list shows the same btw.
AT wise it's pretty fair though atm.
29 Aug 2015, 10:14 AM
#28
Posts: 431
People can keep complaining about cache sharing, but that isn't the biggest problem. A huge factor for Axis's favor in team games is that in, say, 1v1s, Axis can lock down a sector of the map with machine guns and the OKW flak base and medic HQ. It's up to that Axis player to then fight for the rest of the map while his defenses work in his favor on his side of the map. Allies must cover the rest of the map while constantly harassing Axis defensive positions. Obviously, this is a blanket statement, but that tends to be how a lot of games play out.
However, in team games, there are enough players to go around to cover the entire expanse of Axis's half of the map, inching up to, and often covering, the fuel and victory points. Every single crucial point on the map is covered by defenses. If Axis is allowed a foothold to set those defenses up, they basically autowin. It's possible to topple an established Axis fortress of doom (usually because of awful Axis players), but Allies have to climb up a mountain just to stay even since artillery can only do so much. The only way Allies can stay on even ground is if they never allow Axis to set up shop, because then Axis barely have to do anything until their invincible armor wave shows up. Artillery can only do so much.
Allied teams require tons of coordinated attacks while Axis is basically allowed to just sit there once their defenses and forward retreat points are up and hope the Allies aren't communicating . And naturally, they get away with it most of the time because most people who play 3v3s and 4v4s are not very good players.
It will be interesting to see how the British change this dynamic because now Allies are allowed to play Axis-style.
However, in team games, there are enough players to go around to cover the entire expanse of Axis's half of the map, inching up to, and often covering, the fuel and victory points. Every single crucial point on the map is covered by defenses. If Axis is allowed a foothold to set those defenses up, they basically autowin. It's possible to topple an established Axis fortress of doom (usually because of awful Axis players), but Allies have to climb up a mountain just to stay even since artillery can only do so much. The only way Allies can stay on even ground is if they never allow Axis to set up shop, because then Axis barely have to do anything until their invincible armor wave shows up. Artillery can only do so much.
Allied teams require tons of coordinated attacks while Axis is basically allowed to just sit there once their defenses and forward retreat points are up and hope the Allies aren't communicating . And naturally, they get away with it most of the time because most people who play 3v3s and 4v4s are not very good players.
It will be interesting to see how the British change this dynamic because now Allies are allowed to play Axis-style.
29 Aug 2015, 14:03 PM
#29
10 
Posts: 871
Matchmaking is the single biggest issue with large team games. Very rarely is it even close to being an even match.
29 Aug 2015, 15:26 PM
#30
Posts: 830
This is partly correct.
The likelihood of getting worse enemies is heavily increased on Allies side sadly - thanks to the lack of any hard cap limit with the MM search.
Check out http://coh2chart.com/, or the leaderboards here. Those win ratios for randoms are not due balance. My own little list shows the same btw.
AT wise it's pretty fair though atm.
You mean the likelihood of getting horrible teammates is increased on Allied side?
I see your point there. But isn't that more due to the fact that the skill gap in Allied player base is so wide and the player base is so small that the matchmaking has no choice but to put people from different ends of the skill gap together?
If this is true, than this is a slight advantage for the Axis side, but again we are talking 4v4 here, a total noobfest.
29 Aug 2015, 15:33 PM
#31
Posts: 830
People can keep complaining about cache sharing, but that isn't the biggest problem. A huge factor for Axis's favor in team games is that in, say, 1v1s, Axis can lock down a sector of the map with machine guns and the OKW flak base and medic HQ. It's up to that Axis player to then fight for the rest of the map while his defenses work in his favor on his side of the map. Allies must cover the rest of the map while constantly harassing Axis defensive positions. Obviously, this is a blanket statement, but that tends to be how a lot of games play out.
However, in team games, there are enough players to go around to cover the entire expanse of Axis's half of the map, inching up to, and often covering, the fuel and victory points. Every single crucial point on the map is covered by defenses. If Axis is allowed a foothold to set those defenses up, they basically autowin. It's possible to topple an established Axis fortress of doom (usually because of awful Axis players), but Allies have to climb up a mountain just to stay even since artillery can only do so much. The only way Allies can stay on even ground is if they never allow Axis to set up shop, because then Axis barely have to do anything until their invincible armor wave shows up. Artillery can only do so much.
Allied teams require tons of coordinated attacks while Axis is basically allowed to just sit there once their defenses and forward retreat points are up and hope the Allies aren't communicating . And naturally, they get away with it most of the time because most people who play 3v3s and 4v4s are not very good players.
It will be interesting to see how the British change this dynamic because now Allies are allowed to play Axis-style.
Yeah because maxim spam into at guns into m5 quad into call ins can't defend any territory.
Allied teams require tons of coordinated attacks while Axis is basically allowed to just sit there once their defenses and forward retreat points are up and hope the Allies aren't communicating.
It seems you have never played a 4v4 in your life. Coordinated attacks in a 4v4, my my you must have had some rare games? Axis don't need to communicate, woah what a team, next level tactics here?!
You are acting like Allies need some high level math and next level tactics to even capture as much as one vp or a fuel point. They don't. Allied early game can overwhelm Axis if played right, especially in 4v4.
I think the problem here is that you are looking at this from a slightly bias way. Axis can camp very well, so can allies, especially soviets. The only problem is that camping for Allies means that they are wasting time with camping and letting their opponents get their strong late game armor out. Axis don't insta win if they camp one spot. Perhaps they do in your mind, which gives them a psychological edge above you and your team.
29 Aug 2015, 20:38 PM
#32
Posts: 431
Yeah because maxim spam into at guns into m5 quad into call ins can't defend any territory.
Of course it can, in the early game especially (which is, you know, not at all what I'm talking about).
It seems you have never played a 4v4 in your life. Coordinated attacks in a 4v4, my my you must have had some rare games? Axis don't need to communicate, woah what a team, next level tactics here?!
You are acting like Allies need some high level math and next level tactics to even capture as much as one vp or a fuel point. They don't. Allied early game can overwhelm Axis if played right, especially in 4v4.
I don't really know why you're being so salty (then again, typical for this forum so why am I surprised), but you are really missing the point completely. The points I made are for when Axis already has a foothold on the map. Allies can definitely overwhelm Axis early game. No question about it. I'm specifically talking about when the mid game hits and Axis has their defenses up on the crucial points. If that happens, Allies have to fight triple as hard to even stay even. If Allies don't win in the first 8-10 minutes, they're going to have a really hard time just because of the way Axis works.
I think the problem here is that you are looking at this from a slightly bias way. Axis can camp very well, so can allies, especially soviets. The only problem is that camping for Allies means that they are wasting time with camping and letting their opponents get their strong late game armor out. Axis don't insta win if they camp one spot. Perhaps they do in your mind, which gives them a psychological edge above you and your team.
Again, you're totally missing my point. Granted, I do usually play Allies since it's easier to find a match, but I've played Axis plenty of times and the same thing happens. You either get overrun early, or you get to to establish a foothold on the map and just camp into victory. Obviously there are exceptions, but that's generally what happens.
In response to the part I bolded, that's my point exactly that you apparently missed. I'm not talking about camping one spot. I'm talking about their entire half of the map (though the efficacy of this is tied to which map you're playing, naturally). That's why Axis doesn't insta-win in 1v1 or even 2v2. They can't put their defenses up on every single point on the damn map. There aren't 3 or 4 separate Schwerer Panzer HQs to contend with on each fuel and 2/3 of the VPs. Breaking through two+ camping Axis players without your teammates helping you is impossible, because those defenses are only really breakable with an equal or greater force strategizing around them, and since a lot of big team game players aren't good, this exacerbates the Axis win rates because Allies have to coordinate to break a tactic that just requires being Axis.
29 Aug 2015, 21:36 PM
#33
Posts: 830
Of course it can, in the early game especially (which is, you know, not at all what I'm talking about).
I don't really know why you're being so salty (then again, typical for this forum so why am I surprised), but you are really missing the point completely. The points I made are for when Axis already has a foothold on the map. Allies can definitely overwhelm Axis early game. No question about it. I'm specifically talking about when the mid game hits and Axis has their defenses up on the crucial points. If that happens, Allies have to fight triple as hard to even stay even. If Allies don't win in the first 8-10 minutes, they're going to have a really hard time just because of the way Axis works.
If that happens, Allies have played bad and deserve to fight harder. This goes both ways, if Allies can get a foothold, Axis should fight harder to get terrain back. Or do you think otherwise? (sincere no salt here)
Again, you're totally missing my point. Granted, I do usually play Allies since it's easier to find a match, but I've played Axis plenty of times and the same thing happens. You either get overrun early, or you get to to establish a foothold on the map and just camp into victory. Obviously there are exceptions, but that's generally what happens.
Yeah so? This is how it goes in 1v1s and 2v2s as well. How is this suddenly unfair for Allies? They have their advantage early game and the Axis have it late game. You can even argue that Soviets can pretty much deal with Axis late game. If Axis get beaten early game it is fine, but if Axis play well and camp it out and get their better later game units, it suddenly is unfair and favored towards Axis? How so?
In response to the part I bolded, that's my point exactly that you apparently missed. I'm not talking about camping one spot. I'm talking about their entire half of the map (though the efficacy of this is tied to which map you're playing, naturally). That's why Axis doesn't insta-win in 1v1 or even 2v2. They can't put their defenses up on every single point on the damn map
There aren't 3 or 4 separate Schwerer Panzer HQs to contend with on each fuel and 2/3 of the VPs. Breaking through two+ camping Axis players without your teammates helping you is impossible, because those defenses are only really breakable with an equal or greater force strategizing around them, and since a lot of big team game players aren't good, this exacerbates the Axis win rates because Allies have to coordinate to break a tactic that just requires being Axis.
I see your point here. But again this goes both ways, if there aren't 4 Schwerer Panzer HQs in a 1v1, there sure as hell aren't 4 M5 Quads or m20s there.
Axis can put a single defensive structure on every point on the map in a 1v1, but they would be foolish to do so since building nothing but mg bunkers and mg42/mg34s will surely make you lose (not to talk about the mp cost). 4v4 maps are big, I doubt every point in the Axis held territory will have a defensive structure, the exaggeration is real.
"Axis are better for camping and defending and Allies need to coordinate their attacks to break a tactic that just requires being Axis" You are totally right, Ostheer was designed to play more defensively. OKW however was not, yet their infantry swarms can defend good by their own. But again, if you have 4 Soviets, you have 4 players who can build Katties. If you have 4 soviets, you can have 1-4 ml20s. If you have USF in your team, you can have Priests. All of these can deal with camping Axis just fine.
To add to this, if you have 4 Soviets, you can have 4 players with maxims, who can spam the field full of them. If these players go into zis wall into mortars into Heavy tanks, you can bet your ass Axis will have problems.
Pls, everything goes both ways, just see it.
30 Aug 2015, 00:24 AM
#34
Posts: 431
If that happens, Allies have played bad and deserve to fight harder. This goes both ways, if Allies can get a foothold, Axis should fight harder to get terrain back. Or do you think otherwise? (sincere no salt here)
Yeah so? This is how it goes in 1v1s and 2v2s as well. How is this suddenly unfair for Allies? They have their advantage early game and the Axis have it late game. You can even argue that Soviets can pretty much deal with Axis late game. If Axis get beaten early game it is fine, but if Axis play well and camp it out and get their better later game units, it suddenly is unfair and favored towards Axis? How so?
I see your point here. But again this goes both ways, if there aren't 4 Schwerer Panzer HQs in a 1v1, there sure as hell aren't 4 M5 Quads or m20s there.
Axis can put a single defensive structure on every point on the map in a 1v1, but they would be foolish to do so since building nothing but mg bunkers and mg42/mg34s will surely make you lose (not to talk about the mp cost). 4v4 maps are big, I doubt every point in the Axis held territory will have a defensive structure, the exaggeration is real.
"Axis are better for camping and defending and Allies need to coordinate their attacks to break a tactic that just requires being Axis" You are totally right, Ostheer was designed to play more defensively. OKW however was not, yet their infantry swarms can defend good by their own. But again, if you have 4 Soviets, you have 4 players who can build Katties. If you have 4 soviets, you can have 1-4 ml20s. If you have USF in your team, you can have Priests. All of these can deal with camping Axis just fine.
To add to this, if you have 4 Soviets, you can have 4 players with maxims, who can spam the field full of them. If these players go into zis wall into mortars into Heavy tanks, you can bet your ass Axis will have problems.
Pls, everything goes both ways, just see it.
I've fought some very good Axis players and felt I deserved to lose those games. It's just a matter of certain factions being more powerful in certain phases of the game, that's all. In team games- in any strategy game I've ever played- the "late game factions" always perform better in team games. It's just the way it is, and there's really no easy fix for it. See: how awful Zerg are in big team games in SC2. This isn't unique to Company of Heroes.
Don't get me wrong, none of what I'm saying is emotional complaining and bitching. It's just how the game tends to play out. I don't really see how anyone could disagree that Axis have an advantage in team games; the only thing that's really debatable is how big that advantage actually is. The only actual problem I have with it is the ease of strategies versus their counters. OKW, for example, can nullify minute-long retreat paths on large maps just by having OKW tech. They also get a free, high health tech building that they get for essentially free. This is all well and good, it's just the the amount of coordinated effort it takes to counter something that's so easy to do. That's my only real problem with it. Countering four admittedly OP (like they're going to stay that way for long) Quad halftracks takes considerably less effort than toppling the Axis fortress of doom on large maps. You just need to catch them out of position once and they're done for, even if they are too strong at the moment.
If Axis fights really hard to take the map back from Allies through sheer skill, coordination, and tactical maneuvers, that's great. I just hate those games where they're allowed to sit there with PaK 43s behind buildings that block Katyusha rockets, Elefants, bunkers, MGs in buildings, and they just win because the VPs drain before you get a chance to take the map back. We've all been there. I've done it as Axis and feel like my opponents are helpless after a certain point. This isn't just me complaining about losing.
30 Aug 2015, 02:46 AM
#35
Posts: 622
well we will see how strong the 3 allied faction combine arms is against german 2 faction combine arms in few days.
30 Aug 2015, 03:53 AM
#36
Posts: 67
You can get complete and utter irrational retards with Allies and Axis. Matchmaking can favor a team based on what it finds, it doesn't favor a specific faction.
But in a way it does, in 3v3 and 4v4, Axis are easier to play and need less coordination. So if all 8 players are idiots, it is more likely the Axis will win.
Allies need decent coordination in team games to win. I mean look at KTs or JT coming out, those things can wreck stuff without much thought, but to be taken out the allies have to coordinate.
I think tournaments are a really good example of how allies can hold their own and also shows how they must work as an effective team whereas in random games, it's just not going to happen.
I mean look at some recent tournaments, multiple jacksons and a few other units doing massive complicated flanks that won them the game, but coordinating flanks and similar things are just hard to do in randoms, something allies need to do to win.
If allies had nukes, they would still be underpowered
30 Aug 2015, 07:52 AM
#37
Posts: 99
This past tourney that included 3v3 and 4v4 games saw a very high degree of competitiveness. I can say from experience my teams Allied 3's and 4's had a good win ratio. The issue is that the coordination required between team mates in Allied 3's and 4's is higher, while this is less true for Axis.
this is true to both factions, you need to support each other i think its a matter of strategical decition making at least from a 500 vp point of view
30 Aug 2015, 09:11 AM
#38
Posts: 830
I've fought some very good Axis players and felt I deserved to lose those games. It's just a matter of certain factions being more powerful in certain phases of the game, that's all. In team games- in any strategy game I've ever played- the "late game factions" always perform better in team games. It's just the way it is, and there's really no easy fix for it. See: how awful Zerg are in big team games in SC2. This isn't unique to Company of Heroes.
Don't get me wrong, none of what I'm saying is emotional complaining and bitching. It's just how the game tends to play out. I don't really see how anyone could disagree that Axis have an advantage in team games; the only thing that's really debatable is how big that advantage actually is. The only actual problem I have with it is the ease of strategies versus their counters. OKW, for example, can nullify minute-long retreat paths on large maps just by having OKW tech. They also get a free, high health tech building that they get for essentially free. This is all well and good, it's just the the amount of coordinated effort it takes to counter something that's so easy to do. That's my only real problem with it. Countering four admittedly OP (like they're going to stay that way for long) Quad halftracks takes considerably less effort than toppling the Axis fortress of doom on large maps. You just need to catch them out of position once and they're done for, even if they are too strong at the moment.
If Axis fights really hard to take the map back from Allies through sheer skill, coordination, and tactical maneuvers, that's great. I just hate those games where they're allowed to sit there with PaK 43s behind buildings that block Katyusha rockets, Elefants, bunkers, MGs in buildings, and they just win because the VPs drain before you get a chance to take the map back. We've all been there. I've done it as Axis and feel like my opponents are helpless after a certain point. This isn't just me complaining about losing.
I see your point. If this really annoys you, don't play 4v4s, very simple...
Again, you keep saying this Axis have an advantage in team games. So do Allies, but only in the early to mid game. It sometimes annoys me how Allies can just swarm the map in the early game and push me off the map with ease. Does this mean it is easy mode gg for Allies? No it doesn't..
I understand that you don't like the fact that Axis factions can get very powerfull weapons near the end, but that is just the way it is and it won't change, neither should it change. If that changes, when will Axis have their time to shine? Early game or mid game perhaps?
If anything should be changed it is the veterancy for OKW, that is just a joke. Oh and Ostheer sniper, overperforming like it is just another day
30 Aug 2015, 09:28 AM
#39
Posts: 830
But in a way it does, in 3v3 and 4v4, Axis are easier to play and need less coordination. So if all 8 players are idiots, it is more likely the Axis will win.
Allies need decent coordination in team games to win. I mean look at KTs or JT coming out, those things can wreck stuff without much thought, but to be taken out the allies have to coordinate.
I think tournaments are a really good example of how allies can hold their own and also shows how they must work as an effective team whereas in random games, it's just not going to happen.
I mean look at some recent tournaments, multiple jacksons and a few other units doing massive complicated flanks that won them the game, but coordinating flanks and similar things are just hard to do in randoms, something allies need to do to win.
A massive complicated flank? Please elaborate.
I still don't agree with the fact that Axis have it easier. Perhaps they do at the end, but then we can't deny that Allies have it easier at the start. I have played many games where Axis couldn' t get their late game armor out, because they were stomped early game. I have also had many games were Allies screwed up in the early game and got annihilated in the late game. How is this wrong?
30 Aug 2015, 20:20 PM
#40
Posts: 67
A massive complicated flank? Please elaborate.
I still don't agree with the fact that Axis have it easier. Perhaps they do at the end, but then we can't deny that Allies have it easier at the start. I have played many games where Axis couldn' t get their late game armor out, because they were stomped early game. I have also had many games were Allies screwed up in the early game and got annihilated in the late game. How is this wrong?
Just watch the tournament vods and skip to the tank engagements.
Axis don't have it easier per say just in randoms more coordination is needed with ally players. As for it being as simple as breaking it down to just early game and late game, at low level randoms yeah but it's simply not like that in high level team games, in most cases the early game is pretty close and mid game is where it is really decided.
If allies had nukes, they would still be underpowered
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