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Issues with OKW

20 Aug 2015, 15:55 PM
#21
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1

The problem with OKW is they have two useless units in T1 and T2, and their early game is predicated on the Kubel, which isn't fun to micro or play against.



My blood pressure spikes just thinking about how many Kubels I've lost because the driver decided that a 9 point turn + a 360 was needed to retreat. Its either that or it locks down your cutoff early and you spend the first few minutes Oorahing around trying to chase the damn thing away. Swear there is no middle ground.

Part of me wants to see the Alpha changes just so I don't have to deal with Kubel BS anymore lol

On topic, I suggest your play more games as OKW. After a game or two when you lose a vehicle early or get an unlucky truck loss and you'll quickly see how much on the back foot it places you.
20 Aug 2015, 16:26 PM
#22
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

I want the alpha changes too :(
20 Aug 2015, 16:29 PM
#23
avatar of Kronosaur0s

Posts: 1701



WTF...Do you even play Allies?


No :megusta:
20 Aug 2015, 16:30 PM
#24
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

I can see conversion problematic in some ways.
For example, after getting first JPIV, I can completly turn income to ammo and reach 70+ ammo per minute. That's insane amount. 3min and I can get upgrades for everything I want.

Secondly, when I have 2-3 schrecks and 2-3 LMGs/G43, there is no point for keeping ammo income and I can turn in to fuel, so I can produce insane amount of vehicles, since I float MP (or even eariler when I use Jaegers which does not need upgrades).

There are plenty of 2v2 games where OKW player can get 2 KTs, Stuka, Flak or 2 Ostwinds + 4JPIV + Stuka (I did it in 45min 2v2 game), or 2 Strumtigers (that hit during realod :megusta: ) and King Tiger in 40min 2v2.

So... If you lose early game Puma/Flak/JPIV, it's going to kill you.
But if game lasts for 30mins, you can replace everything you want.
20 Aug 2015, 16:36 PM
#25
avatar of mycalliope

Posts: 721

40/.66 = 60

80/.66 = 124

If you adjust the tech for their fuel disability it make sense in the context of the other factions. They get 1st tier for free like Soviets and Ostheer, and their second tier either costs 60 fuel or 124 (close to 130) like USF.

Also yeah OKW can't afford to lose tanks and still stay in the game and conversion hurts you more than it helps you 80% of the time.

thumbs up ! for the Big Boss avatar.
20 Aug 2015, 16:46 PM
#26
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1

Part of the issue is how OKW scales in larger team games. In larger team games OKW trucks are basically off limits because of the forces needed to muster to bring them down. They represent little to no risk, and by the time they are vulnerable the player should already have the units they need from them.

Conversion abilities are, again, fair in lower player count games, but as Australian has pointed out even in 2v2 they begin to get pretty ugly. In larger games you dump the munitions into upgrades and then convert all to fuel. At this point you play like a slightly handicapped Wehr, but with far better vehicles.

The ultra heavies are also of limited importance in smaller games, but as the game grows these units can enter the field sooner and have better protection so represent lower risks. They also turn the battle into an attrition battle that the Allies can only afford to play once. If I lose all my tanks trying to flank a JT and it survives with a sliver of health the game is over. I can continue to play, but I cannot ever have a chance to build up enough forces again to challenge the JT. Keep in mind these pushes are harder in larger games where more players mean that the battle lines are more static than in 1v1's. This is compounded by the fact that OKW has a native heavy tank that all other factions either have to go to commanders for or don't even have. In larger games these tanks are too low a risk and bleed mp quickly. Even if not built they represent a threat that requires large investments in AT. For instance, as American I need to maintain 2 Jacksons on the field by the late game at all times to control heavy pushes. That is quite a bit of MP and fuel that is not shooting infantry.

OKW as a faction is poorly conceptualized. As a player I pay a fee to have an amazing late game by having lower income throughout the game. But these incomes are only really felt in 1v1 games, by the time you get to 4v4 you almost can't even tell because the OKW tech tree is so strong and cache support. Balance for OKW will be very difficult to manage at all levels simultaneously and I look forward to seeing Relic's plan with the Brits coming. I assume patch notes will drop early again.
20 Aug 2015, 16:48 PM
#27
avatar of Appleseed

Posts: 622

Changes for OKW:

  • Remove Munitions to Fuel Conversion

    Jagdpanzers can come out earlier than a Sherman if a USF player like me builds all officers (like how it should be played).

    JP come out faster than Sherman means their T3 come really late, will not build flank HT no anti blob, T4 comes really late

    An indirect issue with this has to do with map control as well. If the Allies have both fuel points, OKW can keep both munitions points and still manage.

    No, Munitions to Fuel Conversion decreases MU income by 50% and the income divide by 4 is its fuel income increase by 1, and consider income reduction of OKW, it is really normal 5 ally mu for 1 fu. if OKW leave it on, you prob only see 3-4 shrecks the entire game, very little nade throwing, zero off map art as it have no mu to use it. OKW off map art are very expansive.

    If OKW was a 100% FU faction, this would be very overpowered because they'd have tanks coming out earlier than everyone. However the issue isn't as blatant and is hiding because OKW is at 66% FU. So tanks don't come out earlier than other factions, but they do come out at the same time. For a faction that was designed on superior tanks than every other faction, this is a staggering issue. OKW should have tanks coming out after every other faction does, not at the same time. Cheap OKW HQs exasperates this issue; I will elaborate on this.

    OKW come out same time only if they skiped all light armor, and prob only JP arrive early, P4 need 85 more FU for it to come out which is 3-5min later

    Another issue is in addition to OKW tanks coming out at proper timings, they aren't penalized enough for losing tanks. They have access to beasts like Jagdtigers, King Tigers, Panthers, Sturmtigers, Jagdpanzers, but losing them doesn't matter much because replacing them isn't too difficult. OKW shouldn't have the Soviet and Allies mentality of throwing away tanks and still managing to win.

    LOL are you drunk, OKW can't afford to lose anything like Panthers sturmtiger or any its heavies. only thing is ok to lose is JP and P4 but those hurts very bad. also all OKW armor have high pop, so it will out number by ally tank all the time, 2 panther is max a OKW can afford to have in pop

    All you need is the good old munitions to fuel conversion and everything is fine and dandy for the OKW. All they need are Panzershreks anyways.

    so OKW don't need use nades? Their tank don't upgrade their HMGs? don't need place mines or bunkers? don't need use panzerfust or upgrade obers? no off map art support? LOL all faction need MU, if they leave MU -> FU on too long it really hurts. also OKW shreks is 50% more expansive than OH shrek or USF bazooka

  • Increase HQ Costs by 50% (300 MP + 60 FU)

    You know how MU --> FU conversion nullifies the whole low fuel concept for OKW? It is exasperated by the fact that their HQs are so cheap. Just 200 MP and 40 FU for Mech and Medic HQs and 80 FU for the Flak HQ. Compared to Ostheer, USF, UKF, and USSR, its too cheap.

    yes it is cheaper than others but they can't spam it, they put those too forward is really easy to lose and need wait for replacement for a long time, it is risk vs reward.

    This also creates issues with risk vs. reward. OKW can manage to be risky with their HQs because there isn't much fuel at stake. Yes, one can argue there is more at stake than just the 200 MP and 40 FU, so this is more of a smaller issue but still an issue that needs to be fixed.

    there is huge risk because once it is destroyed OKW can't build another right the way. so they got no access to the units for that building.

    Some people say that their HQs should be cheaper because they are starved faction. This isn't a reasonable justification for cheap HQs. What is the point of fuel starving a faction because they have access to stronger units if you are going to make their techs cheaper?

    I think OKW HQ price is fine atm

    This essentially gets tanks out really quickly. Do the math, USSR for example requires more fuel to get its T34 out than a Jagdpanzer.

    SU
    T1/T2 160 MP 40/50FU
    T3 240MP 80FU
    T4 240MP 90FU
    T34/76 300MP 80FU
    Total 940MP 290/300Fu

    OKW
    T2 200MP 40FU
    JP 400MP 135FU
    Total 600MP 175FU
    consider OKW only have 66% of SU FU income rate. it real total cost for FU is 175/0.66=265.15 yes it is cheaper in fuel wise than T34 it is Cheapter by 24.85/34.85 FU so it will be 1 min early if OKW don't build anything else like Kubel also if USSR build cache then there wont be any difference in fuel. also there won't be MU -> FU conversion thing you mentino about


    That being said, I want this to be an intellectual discussion please without the "fanboy" "OP" cards with little to no reasoning behind statements. This isn't a flame thread, this is after analyzing the game after 2,000 hours of gameplay. I provided my reasons, so you guys give reasons to why you agree or disagree. And specifics please.
    after 2000 hr play still saying OKW can throw away their tanks you must be joking, play more OKW see if they can throw away any armor they own
20 Aug 2015, 16:55 PM
#28
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

If you seriously convert munitions to fuel after you feel you have "enough" weapon upgrades you are doing it wrong. The way to play OKW is constantly using abilities, grenades, and mines to keep yourself on a level playing field. Like what is the point of getting a tank 2 minutes faster if you get wiped off the field in that 2 minutes.


There are plenty of 2v2 games where OKW player can get 2 KTs, Stuka, Flak or 2 Ostwinds + 4JPIV + Stuka (I did it in 45min 2v2 game), or 2 Strumtigers (that hit during realod :megusta: ) and King Tiger in 40min 2v2.

So... If you lose early game Puma/Flak/JPIV, it's going to kill you.
But if game lasts for 30mins, you can replace everything you want.


This doesn't happen in competitive games.

20 Aug 2015, 17:08 PM
#29
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

Alex your avatar is awesome.
20 Aug 2015, 17:10 PM
#30
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

Alex your avatar is awesome.


thank you

20 Aug 2015, 17:11 PM
#31
avatar of Corsin

Posts: 600

snip


Although you have spent 2000 hours playing the game, it seems very few of those were spent as OKW else you would know the flack truck costs 80 fuel...

I would also have to question how you can rationalise OKW being the faction that doesnt suffer as much from losing vehicles? It... by far suffers the most from losing vehicles as it has a lower income and generally higher costs per vehicles.

Its fuel income is as bad as it seems. The ammo to fuel conversion is fine (you literally have hardly any ammo income while this is active).

Instead of trading manpower for fuel (through cashes) they trade ammo. Which tbh is more draining.


Their vehicles are as ive already said more expensive and they have to tolerate abilities such as marked target and button which further makes them ineffective.

And as for the teching... a fuel truck which can be easily killed (and often is) by soviet artillery or call-in artillery from both allied factions to be made MORE expencive is just daft.


As alex pointed out with the costs...

40/.66 = 60

80/.66 = 124

If you adjust the tech for their fuel disability


So in a nutshell i can see you put alot of time into that post. however id question of your 2000 hours gameplay how much was vs good players as OKW. My guess from your opinions and conclusions would be very few.
20 Aug 2015, 17:45 PM
#32
avatar of Robbie_Rotten
Donator 11

Posts: 412

Changes for OKW:

  • Remove Munitions to Fuel Conversion

    This has been bugging me for over a year since WFA came out. OKW isn't as fuel starved as people think it is. Pumas, Panthers, Jagdpanzers, all come out very early for OKW if they convert. Jagdpanzers can come out earlier than a Sherman if a USF player like me builds all officers (like how it should be played).

    An indirect issue with this has to do with map control as well. If the Allies have both fuel points, OKW can keep both munitions points and still manage.

    If OKW was a 100% FU faction, this would be very overpowered because they'd have tanks coming out earlier than everyone. However the issue isn't as blatant and is hiding because OKW is at 66% FU. So tanks don't come out earlier than other factions, but they do come out at the same time. For a faction that was designed on superior tanks than every other faction, this is a staggering issue. OKW should have tanks coming out after every other faction does, not at the same time. Cheap OKW HQs exasperates this issue; I will elaborate on this.

    Another issue is in addition to OKW tanks coming out at proper timings, they aren't penalized enough for losing tanks. They have access to beasts like Jagdtigers, King Tigers, Panthers, Sturmtigers, Jagdpanzers, but losing them doesn't matter much because replacing them isn't too difficult. OKW shouldn't have the Soviet and Allies mentality of throwing away tanks and still managing to win.

    All you need is the good old munitions to fuel conversion and everything is fine and dandy for the OKW. All they need are Panzershreks anyways.

  • Increase HQ Costs by 50% (300 MP + 60 FU)

    You know how MU --> FU conversion nullifies the whole low fuel concept for OKW? It is exasperated by the fact that their HQs are so cheap. Just 200 MP and 40 FU for Mech and Medic HQs and 80 FU for the Flak HQ. Compared to Ostheer, USF, UKF, and USSR, its too cheap.

    This also creates issues with risk vs. reward. OKW can manage to be risky with their HQs because there isn't much fuel at stake. Yes, one can argue there is more at stake than just the 200 MP and 40 FU, so this is more of a smaller issue but still an issue that needs to be fixed.

    Some people say that their HQs should be cheaper because they are starved faction. This isn't a reasonable justification for cheap HQs. What is the point of fuel starving a faction because they have access to stronger units if you are going to make their techs cheaper?

    This essentially gets tanks out really quickly. Do the math, USSR for example requires more fuel to get its T34 out than a Jagdpanzer.

    That being said, I want this to be an intellectual discussion please without the "fanboy" "OP" cards with little to no reasoning behind statements. This isn't a flame thread, this is after analyzing the game after 2,000 hours of gameplay. I provided my reasons, so you guys give reasons to why you agree or disagree. And specifics please.


The JPIV has made a big comeback because it comes out shortly after the stuart and the M5 and of course scales better than just about any TD in the game. Because of this, OKW is fine. Also, as OKW in a 30 minute game you can expect to see 1 KT, 1 JPIV and PIV, Ostwindx2 JPIV, etc... The fuel penalty definitely hurts them.

That being said, I think having the PIV start with armor skirts is a bit stupid, because it makes people more likely to yolo what should be a precious resource.
20 Aug 2015, 18:11 PM
#33
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2


This doesn't happen in competitive games.



So this is not competitive game?

http://www.coh2.org/replay/37852/mod-vs-ihitto-%26-dr.-destynova


Or maybe this one is not competitive?

http://www.coh2.org/replay/38475/sturmtigers-vs-rtn

All trucks, Flak, JPIV, Panther, KT, Luchs, another JPIV in production and still over 100F left with Triple LMG Obers.

SU Player spent around 1265F while OKW 1080 (around 800 but around 280 was still avaible) which is 85% of the SU player's expenses.

So stop spreading pudding like this. It has nothing to do with level of the game.
It's about how long it lasts.
If it lasts for 20mins-30mins you may not be able to replace loses.
If it lasts over 30min you will have fuel and ammo for everything, you will even get ammo income around 85/m with conversion and good map control.

So, tons of fuel, triple LMG, few schu mines and grenades.
20 Aug 2015, 18:18 PM
#34
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



So this is not competitive game?

http://www.coh2.org/replay/37852/mod-vs-ihitto-%26-dr.-destynova


Or maybe this one is not competitive?

http://www.coh2.org/replay/38475/sturmtigers-vs-rtn

All trucks, Flak, JPIV, Panther, KT, Luchs, another JPIV in production and still over 100F left with Triple LMG Obers.

SU Player spent around 1265F while OKW 1080 which is 85% of the SU player's expenses.

So stop spreading pudding like this. It has nothing to do with level of the game.
It's about how long it lasts.
If it lasts for 20mins-30mins you may not be able to replace loses.
If it lasts over 30min you will have fuel and ammo for everything, you will even get ammo income around 85/m with conversion and good map control.



Those are all 1 hour+ games, not:

But if game lasts for 30mins, you can replace everything you want.


30 minutes

Converting to munitions once your popcapped IS a smart choice because it's efficient; but converting to fuel is much less so. Your just shooting yourself in the foot by doing it. Like I said if you get pushed off the map the thing you want coming earlier doesn't matter.

LMG's and Shreks are w/e, what munitions are important for are mines and booby traps. You will never out upgrade your enemy, you will never have more vehicles in the enemy, so you need to outplay your enemy. Having him lose shit to mines, grenades, traps, abilities, ect are how you level the playing field.
20 Aug 2015, 18:30 PM
#35
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



Those are all 1 hour+ games, not:



30 minutes

Converting to munitions once your popcapped IS a smart choice because it's efficient; but converting to fuel is much less so. Your just shooting yourself in the foot by doing it. Like I said if you get pushed off the map the thing you want coming earlier doesn't matter.

LMG's and Shreks are w/e, what munitions are important for are mines and booby traps.


So at least you admit it's about time of the game, not level.

So I guess Giap is shooting into his knee since he kept fuel conversion for a very long time :foreveralone:
20 Aug 2015, 18:36 PM
#36
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



So at least you admit it's about time of the game, not level.

So I guess Giap is shooting into his knee since he kept fuel conversion for a very long time :foreveralone:


I'm saying it's not a good idea unless you are sitting in a very secure position. Like when I'm pop capped converting to munitions is a good idea because I physically cannot make anymore tanks. But conversion to fuel limits my options in the extreme because I need to be constantly using abilities, mines, and grenades to keep it even.

In a competitive game, were you will normally be sitting on the razors edge conversion is a very risky thing to do.
20 Aug 2015, 18:48 PM
#37
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 830



Part of me wants to see the Alpha changes just so I don't have to deal with Kubel BS anymore lol



You can't deny the satisfaction of capturing an abandoned Kubel and driving it around the map with its shitty pathing and annoying the hell out of your opponent to us Kappa.
20 Aug 2015, 19:10 PM
#38
avatar of Qbix

Posts: 254

Can't we simply establish the rule that units are not to be balanced due to problems that only arise in games bigger than 1v1? Imagine you just add a 10v10 mode in League of Legends and Champs now scale up to level 30 instead of 18. Suddenly, certain mechanics that are very balanced become extremely op and annoying, although they aren't really a problem in 5v5 and max level 18, the standard game mode.

Every slight advantage gets amplified exponentially in team games. Please don't balance units around it.
20 Aug 2015, 19:33 PM
#39
avatar of Midconflict

Posts: 204



Now thats fair.


Yap, i think everything else is ok for the OKW
20 Aug 2015, 19:53 PM
#40
avatar of RedT3rror

Posts: 747 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Aug 2015, 19:10 PMQbix
Can't we simply establish the rule that units are not to be balanced due to problems that only arise in games bigger than 1v1? Imagine you just add a 10v10 mode in League of Legends and Champs now scale up to level 30 instead of 18. Suddenly, certain mechanics that are very balanced become extremely op and annoying, although they aren't really a problem in 5v5 and max level 18, the standard game mode.

Every slight advantage gets amplified exponentially in team games. Please don't balance units around it.


That is why OKW needs changes which do not affect smaller games.
The aggressive OKW truck placement is one of the key issues... hardly a problem in 1vs1 or 2vs2 but a gamebreaker in bigger matches. - There could be different approaches: increased cost or time depending on the distance to the HQ or it has to be connected to function properly.

The Kübelwagen itself is a broken unit - close to useless on city maps and OP on open maps (especially against US). - More HP and Dmg, no suppression until vet, better spotting with vet

The Sturmpio as 1st unit, the Kübel and the early OKW truck can quickly seize territory in the beginning and hold it, while the enemy has no access on it (mostly the fuel points). The south of Steppes is a perfect example.


Then we have resources from caches... just wtf - there is a reason why they can't build any. 4 OKW vs allies is a different game than 2 OKW and 2 Ostheer.
and then there is the KT exception from the heavy limit. Having 2 Kts or 1 KT and 1 JT is almost impossible to break.
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