Issues with OKW

Jump back to quoted post20 Aug 2015, 15:06 PMBeefSurge

The problem with OKW is they have two useless units in T1 and T2, and their early game is predicated on the Kubel, which isn't fun to micro or play against.

Jump back to quoted post20 Aug 2015, 15:07 PMdasheepeh

WTF...Do you even play Allies?

Jump back to quoted post20 Aug 2015, 09:23 AMAlexzandvar

40/.66 = 60

80/.66 = 124

If you adjust the tech for their fuel disability it make sense in the context of the other factions. They get 1st tier for free like Soviets and Ostheer, and their second tier either costs 60 fuel or 124 (close to 130) like USF.

Also yeah OKW can't afford to lose tanks and still stay in the game and conversion hurts you more than it helps you 80% of the time.

Jump back to quoted post20 Aug 2015, 06:04 AMNorthWeapon

Changes for OKW:

• Remove Munitions to Fuel Conversion
  
  Jagdpanzers can come out earlier than a Sherman if a USF player like me builds all officers (like how it should be played).
  
  JP come out faster than Sherman means their T3 come really late, will not build flank HT no anti blob, T4 comes really late
  
  An indirect issue with this has to do with map control as well. If the Allies have both fuel points, OKW can keep both munitions points and still manage.
  
  No, Munitions to Fuel Conversion decreases MU income by 50% and the income divide by 4 is its fuel income increase by 1, and consider income reduction of OKW, it is really normal 5 ally mu for 1 fu. if OKW leave it on, you prob only see 3-4 shrecks the entire game, very little nade throwing, zero off map art as it have no mu to use it. OKW off map art are very expansive.
  
  If OKW was a 100% FU faction, this would be very overpowered because they'd have tanks coming out earlier than everyone. However the issue isn't as blatant and is hiding because OKW is at 66% FU. So tanks don't come out earlier than other factions, but they do come out at the same time. For a faction that was designed on superior tanks than every other faction, this is a staggering issue. OKW should have tanks coming out after every other faction does, not at the same time. Cheap OKW HQs exasperates this issue; I will elaborate on this.
  
  OKW come out same time only if they skiped all light armor, and prob only JP arrive early, P4 need 85 more FU for it to come out which is 3-5min later
  
  Another issue is in addition to OKW tanks coming out at proper timings, they aren't penalized enough for losing tanks. They have access to beasts like Jagdtigers, King Tigers, Panthers, Sturmtigers, Jagdpanzers, but losing them doesn't matter much because replacing them isn't too difficult. OKW shouldn't have the Soviet and Allies mentality of throwing away tanks and still managing to win.
  
  LOL are you drunk, OKW can't afford to lose anything like Panthers sturmtiger or any its heavies. only thing is ok to lose is JP and P4 but those hurts very bad. also all OKW armor have high pop, so it will out number by ally tank all the time, 2 panther is max a OKW can afford to have in pop
  
  All you need is the good old munitions to fuel conversion and everything is fine and dandy for the OKW. All they need are Panzershreks anyways.
  
  so OKW don't need use nades? Their tank don't upgrade their HMGs? don't need place mines or bunkers? don't need use panzerfust or upgrade obers? no off map art support? LOL all faction need MU, if they leave MU -> FU on too long it really hurts. also OKW shreks is 50% more expansive than OH shrek or USF bazooka
  
  
• Increase HQ Costs by 50% (300 MP + 60 FU)
  
  You know how MU --> FU conversion nullifies the whole low fuel concept for OKW? It is exasperated by the fact that their HQs are so cheap. Just 200 MP and 40 FU for Mech and Medic HQs and 80 FU for the Flak HQ. Compared to Ostheer, USF, UKF, and USSR, its too cheap.
  
  yes it is cheaper than others but they can't spam it, they put those too forward is really easy to lose and need wait for replacement for a long time, it is risk vs reward.
  
  This also creates issues with risk vs. reward. OKW can manage to be risky with their HQs because there isn't much fuel at stake. Yes, one can argue there is more at stake than just the 200 MP and 40 FU, so this is more of a smaller issue but still an issue that needs to be fixed.
  
  there is huge risk because once it is destroyed OKW can't build another right the way. so they got no access to the units for that building.
  
  Some people say that their HQs should be cheaper because they are starved faction. This isn't a reasonable justification for cheap HQs. What is the point of fuel starving a faction because they have access to stronger units if you are going to make their techs cheaper?
  
  I think OKW HQ price is fine atm
  
  This essentially gets tanks out really quickly. Do the math, USSR for example requires more fuel to get its T34 out than a Jagdpanzer.
  
  SU
  T1/T2 160 MP 40/50FU
  T3 240MP 80FU
  T4 240MP 90FU
  T34/76 300MP 80FU
  Total 940MP 290/300Fu
  
  OKW
  T2 200MP 40FU
  JP 400MP 135FU
  Total 600MP 175FU
  consider OKW only have 66% of SU FU income rate. it real total cost for FU is 175/0.66=265.15 yes it is cheaper in fuel wise than T34 it is Cheapter by 24.85/34.85 FU so it will be 1 min early if OKW don't build anything else like Kubel also if USSR build cache then there wont be any difference in fuel. also there won't be MU -> FU conversion thing you mentino about
  
  That being said, I want this to be an intellectual discussion please without the "fanboy" "OP" cards with little to no reasoning behind statements. This isn't a flame thread, this is after analyzing the game after 2,000 hours of gameplay. I provided my reasons, so you guys give reasons to why you agree or disagree. And specifics please.
  after 2000 hr play still saying OKW can throw away their tanks you must be joking, play more OKW see if they can throw away any armor they own
  

There are plenty of 2v2 games where OKW player can get 2 KTs, Stuka, Flak or 2 Ostwinds + 4JPIV + Stuka (I did it in 45min 2v2 game), or 2 Strumtigers (that hit during realod ) and King Tiger in 40min 2v2.

So... If you lose early game Puma/Flak/JPIV, it's going to kill you.
But if game lasts for 30mins, you can replace everything you want.

Jump back to quoted post20 Aug 2015, 17:08 PMBeefSurge

Alex your avatar is awesome.

Jump back to quoted post20 Aug 2015, 06:04 AMNorthWeapon

snip

Jump back to quoted post20 Aug 2015, 06:04 AMNorthWeapon

Changes for OKW:

• Remove Munitions to Fuel Conversion
  
  This has been bugging me for over a year since WFA came out. OKW isn't as fuel starved as people think it is. Pumas, Panthers, Jagdpanzers, all come out very early for OKW if they convert. Jagdpanzers can come out earlier than a Sherman if a USF player like me builds all officers (like how it should be played).
  
  An indirect issue with this has to do with map control as well. If the Allies have both fuel points, OKW can keep both munitions points and still manage.
  
  If OKW was a 100% FU faction, this would be very overpowered because they'd have tanks coming out earlier than everyone. However the issue isn't as blatant and is hiding because OKW is at 66% FU. So tanks don't come out earlier than other factions, but they do come out at the same time. For a faction that was designed on superior tanks than every other faction, this is a staggering issue. OKW should have tanks coming out after every other faction does, not at the same time. Cheap OKW HQs exasperates this issue; I will elaborate on this.
  
  Another issue is in addition to OKW tanks coming out at proper timings, they aren't penalized enough for losing tanks. They have access to beasts like Jagdtigers, King Tigers, Panthers, Sturmtigers, Jagdpanzers, but losing them doesn't matter much because replacing them isn't too difficult. OKW shouldn't have the Soviet and Allies mentality of throwing away tanks and still managing to win.
  
  All you need is the good old munitions to fuel conversion and everything is fine and dandy for the OKW. All they need are Panzershreks anyways.
  
  
• Increase HQ Costs by 50% (300 MP + 60 FU)
  
  You know how MU --> FU conversion nullifies the whole low fuel concept for OKW? It is exasperated by the fact that their HQs are so cheap. Just 200 MP and 40 FU for Mech and Medic HQs and 80 FU for the Flak HQ. Compared to Ostheer, USF, UKF, and USSR, its too cheap.
  
  This also creates issues with risk vs. reward. OKW can manage to be risky with their HQs because there isn't much fuel at stake. Yes, one can argue there is more at stake than just the 200 MP and 40 FU, so this is more of a smaller issue but still an issue that needs to be fixed.
  
  Some people say that their HQs should be cheaper because they are starved faction. This isn't a reasonable justification for cheap HQs. What is the point of fuel starving a faction because they have access to stronger units if you are going to make their techs cheaper?
  
  This essentially gets tanks out really quickly. Do the math, USSR for example requires more fuel to get its T34 out than a Jagdpanzer.
  
  That being said, I want this to be an intellectual discussion please without the "fanboy" "OP" cards with little to no reasoning behind statements. This isn't a flame thread, this is after analyzing the game after 2,000 hours of gameplay. I provided my reasons, so you guys give reasons to why you agree or disagree. And specifics please.

Jump back to quoted post20 Aug 2015, 16:55 PMAlexzandvar

This doesn't happen in competitive games.

Jump back to quoted post20 Aug 2015, 18:11 PMAustralian Magic

So this is not competitive game?

http://www.coh2.org/replay/37852/mod-vs-ihitto-%26-dr.-destynova


Or maybe this one is not competitive?

http://www.coh2.org/replay/38475/sturmtigers-vs-rtn

All trucks, Flak, JPIV, Panther, KT, Luchs, another JPIV in production and still over 100F left with Triple LMG Obers.

SU Player spent around 1265F while OKW 1080 which is 85% of the SU player's expenses.

So stop spreading pudding like this. It has nothing to do with level of the game.
It's about how long it lasts.
If it lasts for 20mins-30mins you may not be able to replace loses.
If it lasts over 30min you will have fuel and ammo for everything, you will even get ammo income around 85/m with conversion and good map control.

But if game lasts for 30mins, you can replace everything you want.

Jump back to quoted post20 Aug 2015, 18:18 PMAlexzandvar

Those are all 1 hour+ games, not:



30 minutes

Converting to munitions once your popcapped IS a smart choice because it's efficient; but converting to fuel is much less so. Your just shooting yourself in the foot by doing it. Like I said if you get pushed off the map the thing you want coming earlier doesn't matter.

LMG's and Shreks are w/e, what munitions are important for are mines and booby traps.

Jump back to quoted post20 Aug 2015, 18:30 PMAustralian Magic

So at least you admit it's about time of the game, not level.

So I guess Giap is shooting into his knee since he kept fuel conversion for a very long time

Jump back to quoted post20 Aug 2015, 15:55 PMEtherealDragon

Part of me wants to see the Alpha changes just so I don't have to deal with Kubel BS anymore lol

Jump back to quoted post20 Aug 2015, 07:43 AMdaspoulos

Now thats fair.

Jump back to quoted post20 Aug 2015, 19:10 PMQbix

Can't we simply establish the rule that units are not to be balanced due to problems that only arise in games bigger than 1v1? Imagine you just add a 10v10 mode in League of Legends and Champs now scale up to level 30 instead of 18. Suddenly, certain mechanics that are very balanced become extremely op and annoying, although they aren't really a problem in 5v5 and max level 18, the standard game mode.

Every slight advantage gets amplified exponentially in team games. Please don't balance units around it.