Undo Soviet T3 before T4 requirement

This thread makes no sense to me. Soviet T4 comes out at around the same time as Ostheer T3, and the T34/76 comes out before the P4. I'm thinking that people are confusing tier number with tier timing.

Tier number is just something people use to show at what relative time in a specific faction's tech that a certain building is built. (Ie. T4 after T3)

Tier timing is dependent on fuel, and is the true measure of the timing of units, across all factions.

You must use tier timing to calculate the correct fuel costs, and in this way soviet t3 is coming at a good time relative to other factions' tech.

If you want to rush a T34/76, just don't build anything from Soviet T3.

Not only t3+t4 after patch instead of pure t4 before patch cost 240mp more, it also cost 50 fuel more. Here is your 2-3m katy delay and 1-2m t34-76 delay thanks to cost reduction of t34-76.

You can also count construction times for every building which i did not.

Not only t3+t4 after patch instead of pure t4 before patch cost 240mp more, it also cost 50 fuel more. Here is your 2-3m katy delay and 1-2m t34-76 delay thanks to cost reduction of t34-76.

You can also count construction times for every building which i did not.

True but you have to remember that all faction got their medium stage tech delayed. The manpower increase puts them in line close to Ostheer, and remember that you are getting the benefit fromt Soviet T3 (buildable units), you are just choosing not to use them.

non-linear tech is nice (because it's potentially more interesting) but you have to make sure it doesn't lock a player out of their options for countering the enemies' plays. this is the issue with the soviets and the recent tech changes have partially resolved it. i feel (quite strongly) that the soviet player should still have a viable option to go t1, t2, and either t3 or t4 if they want. i haven't had the time to play recently so i don't know if that is true or not.

coh2 simply does not have the unit variety to shut factions out of units though; there are very few duplicate (functionally) units in different tiers which makes teching a choice about available counters. this is bad.

Im in favor of picking 2 builings before you allowed to build T4.

I think that would actually be perfect.

I've always thought that would be the best solution but the timing kind of gets screwed up if a player opts to go T1+T2 -> T4. T3 costs 80MP and 30-40FU more than T1 or T2 and has an extended build time associated with it. Allowing T1+T2 alone would cause T4 to arrive 2-3 minutes earlier. I'm not sure how to get around this fact without implementing variable costs or build times based on what buildings a player has built and frankly having context sensitive prices/buildtimes would just make everything far too complicated.

Of course there is always the argument that Soviet T4 isn't exactly that strong. T34s are horrid vs infantry unless crushing and SU85s would have nothing but scout cars and pumas to shoot at when arriving earlier. The only unit that might be a bit OP if it arrived earlier is the Kat.

Overall I'm pretty happy with the current T3 system however. It ensures Soviet players always have access to the M5 for on field reinforcement and AA and always have some form of early AT thanks to the SU76. Instead of committing so much effort to design a system where soviet players have to choose between T3 and T4 again or pick two buildings before building T4 I would rather see the choice between T1 and T2 be made more interesting. Right now T2 is the "safe" pick with all its support weapons while T1 is focused around M3 and sniper cheese. It would be a much more interesting choice if T1 offered truly reliable semi-elite infantry (280-320MP) instead of penals because then it would be a choice between a strong infantry force backed by snipers and M3s or a multitude of support weapons. Such a choice could dramatically alter the infantry composition of a soviet army and potentially make commanders without shocks or guards viable.

The suggested undoing would undo light vehicle combat idea. *looking up from the other side of the desk with personel file in hand* So, I see you don't wish to use light vehicles huh? Get in line you renegade!

Also: Kappa.

True but you have to remember that all faction got their medium stage tech delayed.

Except OKW, who can pump a tank earlier thanks to having new, cheaper tank in T4 as well as unchanged tech costs.

Maybe if they changed the soviet tech tree to allow t4 without taking tech tree but limiting the vehicles you get from it, for example only t34 and katyusha, and if you make t3 you can get the su85s. Bad or bad idea?

Except OKW, who can pump a tank earlier thanks to having new, cheaper tank in T4 as well as unchanged tech costs.

I don't think I need to remind you that OKW is "special snowflake."

They get the first tank out faster, but losing it is a much bigger blow than it is for other tanks. It's probably better to just ignore OKW on all these discussions.

I don't think I need to remind you that OKW is "special snowflake."

They get the first tank out faster, but losing it is a much bigger blow than it is for other tanks. It's probably better to just ignore OKW on all these discussions.

Not really.
There should be default ad-notation then talking balance where it states "except OKW" for basically anything we can talk here.

LOL another poster wasting time talking about faction design. As if relic is gonna listen.

By the way nice Georgia BullDogs avatar, they're my favorite SEC team. Anyways, Relic are "attempting" to encourage light vehicle combat. When in reality they probably implemented these recent changes to all the factions to accommodate the Brit's design. That being said, I really dislike the linear teching that they implemented, but I do enjoy the t34/su76 switch and requiring the t34-85s to be build-able.

Yeah, obviously soviets aren't the best designed faction, but they aren't the worst. I rather see them fixing other factions first since Soviets at this point are fine, except the few vehicles in t3.

The issue is the exact same with Ostheer. In all reality you can't afford to skip T2 and go without paks. The units in t3 are very effective, and the teching cost for T4 is prohibitively expensive for the units they provide so rushing it is not viable.

I don't see how skipping tech as ostheer is any more viable, or gives you any more advantage than "skipping tech" by not producing any units out of T3 as soviets. The only way T4 is viable as Ost is if you skip it by going command P4. I get what you guys are saying, but to claim that the ostheer teching structure is somehow more flexible than the soviets doesn't really hold water. The issue here, imo, is that units in soviet T4 aren't worth skipping the T3 units for.






Really, you're going to call BS without actually doing the work? Well here you go:

Soviets start with 50 fuel.

T2 Cost: 50 Fuel
T3 Cost: 80 FUel
T4 Cost: 90 Fuel
T34 Cost: 80 Fuel

Total cost to T34 minus initial fuel: 250 fuel


Ostheer start with 20 fuel

T1 cost: 10 Fuel
BP 1 cost: 40 fuel
T2 cost: 20 Fuel
BP 2 cost: 45 Fuel
T3 cost: 75 Fuel
P4 cost: 125 Fuel

Total cost to P4 minus initial fuel: 295 fuel

those stats mean nothing for the reasons below

you didnt count molotov unlock upgrade
you didnt count at nade unlock upgrade
you didnt count light vechile costs


Werh get free panzerfaust,free rifle nade,free unlock to lmg 42 and dont spend much fuel on tier 2

soviets need to buy seperately at nades and molotovs as well as spend fuel when they go tier 3

those stats mean nothing for the reasons below

you didnt count molotov unlock upgrade
you didnt count at nade unlock upgrade
you didnt count light vechile costs


Werh get free panzerfaust,free rifle nade,free unlock to lmg 42 and dont spend much fuel on tier 2

soviets need to buy seperately at nades and molotovs as well as spend fuel when they go tier 3

What if i told you should never, ever research molotovs in the current meta. Conscripts in general are bad in the current meta, engineers are way better as combat units in the long run after the flamer buff.

At nades are situational.

What if i told you should never, ever research molotovs in the current meta. Conscripts in general are bad in the current meta, engineers are way better as combat units in the long run after the flamer buff.

At nades are situational.

Molotov is overnerfed trash no question.
AT nade is must have in most games. So +25 fuel. Tank hunter cons are not bad esp with pre-game prts upgrade.
Im still using ussualy TH (vs OH) or GM (vs OKW).

Molotov is overnerfed trash no question.
AT nade is must have in 90% of the games. So +25 fuel. Tank hunter cons are not bad esp with pre-game prts upgrade.
Im still using ussualy TH (vs OH) or GM (vs OKW).

AT nades arenät reallz a neccesity. Yes once medium armor rolls out you should eventually get them.


But due to the timing of the quad and the t-70 soviets have no problem with dealing with the light vehicles of other factions.

I think you not gonnaa argue that AT nade must be reserched before 1st T4 unit in most games.
Plus this

you didnt count light vechile costs

If going to medium tank without T1 you cannot skip light vehicle production 1 or even sometimes 2 T70 is must have. Cuz if you skip you will lose to OP T1 with a sniper.

If count only minimum cost then count minimum cost for germs too. No T2 building, no T1 even. Just mg spam into medium - thats not working. But they count minimum sovs cost and real germs cost - its insane.

All dispute was which medium arrive earlier. 100% OH medium arrive a lot earlier. Thats absurd to dispute that..

NO

OKW lover says YES

those stats mean nothing for the reasons below

you didnt count molotov unlock upgrade
you didnt count at nade unlock upgrade
you didnt count light vechile costs


Werh get free panzerfaust,free rifle nade,free unlock to lmg 42 and dont spend much fuel on tier 2

soviets need to buy seperately at nades and molotovs as well as spend fuel when they go tier 3

You can go as far down the rabbit hole with hypotheticals as you want, but the discussion was about making an active choice to rush a medium vehicle.

T34 is 80 fuel