Undo Soviet T3 before T4 requirement

Except the building cost isn't all that significant for T3, you can still get your non doctrinal medium out faster than ostheer if you choose not to build any units out of T3. Soviets were really restrictive and annoying to play with the old tech tree, I like the flexibility it gives now.

I understand what you guys are getting at, but i'd say this is much better than the previous Soviet tech structure. I don't agree at all with the OP that this solution is "stupid" because IMO the soviets feel more dynamic and fun than they ever have, aside from their reliance on call in infantry.



I like this suggestion, especially when the M5 gets nerfed and rushing a T34 might be worth it

Well the current soviet tech structure is certainly better than the old one but it's still not ideal. The fact that soviet mediums come out faster than wehr mediums doesn't really have anything to do with our topic tbh. The problem I'm having with soviets atm is the lack of tech choices teching speed is not really relevant in that context.

you can still get your non doctrinal medium out faster than ostheer if you choose not to build any units out of T3.

most likely you didnt count anything before posting that. Obviously its vice versa.
Plus currently if you dont win fast (which is rare) you cant skip anything. T1 and T2 are both must have.

T1 can only be skipped on maps semosky and laglez (if I remember their names).
T2 can never be skipped cuz there is no alternative to 1 ZIS in mid game and double ZIS in late.

most likely you didnt count anything before posting that. Obviously its vice versa. Plus currently if you dont win fast (which is rare) you cant skip anything. T1 and T2 are both must have. T1 can only be skipped maps on semosky and laglez (if I remember their names).

What?

T2 can hold its own until you can get T3 and it's probably the most chosen as it provides MGs, mortars and most of all, ATGs. Soviet don't need snipers, M3s, or penals. They can even just get a large groups of cons to hold on, buy either T1 or T2 depending how they feel then build the T3 right after.

All teching in the game should be linear without exception. Would make balance much easier and would help solve the severe unit timing issues we currently face.

T2 can hold its own until you can get T3 and it's probably the most chosen as it provides MGs, mortars and most of all, ATGs. Soviet don't need snipers, M3s, or penals. They can even just get a large groups of cons to hold on, buy either T1 or T2 depending how they feel then build the T3 right after.

What if they get sniper as a 1st unit then? I saw lots of top 1v1s when germs sniper rampages on open maps WHOLE GAME not only in the begining. My sov sniper ussualy get a 20-45 kills per game. And kind of a soft counter to germ sniper.

Sprice for example always start with a sniper with any fraction.

Well the current soviet tech structure is certainly better than the old one but it's still not ideal. The fact that soviet mediums come out faster than wehr mediums doesn't really have anything to do with our topic tbh. The problem I'm having with soviets atm is the lack of tech choices teching speed is not really relevant in that context.

The issue is the exact same with Ostheer. In all reality you can't afford to skip T2 and go without paks. The units in t3 are very effective, and the teching cost for T4 is prohibitively expensive for the units they provide so rushing it is not viable.

I don't see how skipping tech as ostheer is any more viable, or gives you any more advantage than "skipping tech" by not producing any units out of T3 as soviets. The only way T4 is viable as Ost is if you skip it by going command P4. I get what you guys are saying, but to claim that the ostheer teching structure is somehow more flexible than the soviets doesn't really hold water. The issue here, imo, is that units in soviet T4 aren't worth skipping the T3 units for.

most likely you didnt count anything before posting that. Obviously its vice versa.
Plus currently if you dont win fast (which is rare) you cant skip anything. T1 and T2 are both must have. T1 can only be skipped on maps semosky and laglez (if I remember their names).

Really, you're going to call BS without actually doing the work? Well here you go:

Soviets start with 50 fuel.

T2 Cost: 50 Fuel
T3 Cost: 80 FUel
T4 Cost: 90 Fuel
T34 Cost: 80 Fuel

Total cost to T34 minus initial fuel: 250 fuel


Ostheer start with 20 fuel

T1 cost: 10 Fuel
BP 1 cost: 40 fuel
T2 cost: 20 Fuel
BP 2 cost: 45 Fuel
T3 cost: 75 Fuel
P4 cost: 125 Fuel

Total cost to P4 minus initial fuel: 295 fuel

Really, you're going to call BS without actually doing the work? Well here you go:

Soviets start with 50 fuel.

T2 Cost: 50 Fuel
T3 Cost: 80 FUel
T4 Cost: 90 Fuel
T34 Cost: 80 Fuel

Total cost to T34 minus initial fuel: 250 fuel


Ostheer start with 20 fuel

T1 cost: 10 Fuel
BP 1 cost: 40 fuel
T2 cost: 20 Fuel
BP 2 cost: 45 Fuel
T3 cost: 75 Fuel
P4 cost: 125 Fuel

Total cost to P4 minus initial fuel: 295 fuel

IDK why you skip few facts
1. medium doesnt mean P4. Stug g is cheaper and its medium
2. OH can get 1st medium as call in. Which require zero invstment and at this stage its like a cheating maybe (not sure).
3. you skiped sov T1 which means playing with disadvantage (maybe you know better about T1 skip)

IDK why you skip few facts
1. medium doesnt mean P4. Stug g is cheaper and its medium
2. OH can get 1st medium as call in
3. you skiped sov T1 which means playing with disadvantage

The stug is used as a stop gap AT unit, rushing it makes no sense unless you are incredibly behind, in which case you're better off just playing T2 stall into P4 command tank with pak support for AT. The stug compares more directly with the SU-76, which comes earlier as well.

Yes, the Stug-E is a medium call in, but this is CP dependant, and not all games progress at the same rate. This argument doesn't really belong in a discussion regarding tech structure, because it's a call in. This applies to the Command P4 as well, which is probably over performing.

Also, no one builds both T1 and T2 as soviets unless you are playing completely for call ins, which isn't really viable this patch. The tech costs I provided are how most games play out. Sure there are niche tactics that might work if you outplay your opponent, but for the most part soviets go either T1 or T2, then T3 and T4, while ostheer goes T1, T2, and T3.

Also, no one builds both T1 and T2 as soviets unless you are playing completely for call ins, which isn't really viable this patch. The tech costs I provided are how most games play out. Sure there are niche tactics that might work if you outplay your opponent, but for the most part soviets go either T1 or T2, then T3 and T4, while ostheer goes T1, T2, and T3.

Again maybe you know better about T1 skip. But dont say "no one".
For example Sprice have only 1 opening for sovs. Sniper - 3 infantry - ZIS. After that he can do some diferent things.

I m starting to repeat but what you do vs sniper without T1 on langres?

Again maybe you know better about T1 skip. But dont say "no one".
For example Sprice have only 1 opening for sovs. Sniper - 3 infantry - ZIS.

I m starting to repeat but what you do vs sniper without T1 on langres?

Just because Price likes going T1 doesn't mean that soviets aren't viable without snipers. If you want to go T1 you should go guards and still fast tech to T3 and rush either a M5 or T-70. You can then use the SU-76 for AT and either back tech to T2 if you went a call in commander, or tech to T4 if you need the units from there. It just doesn't make sense to go T1 and T2 when the units from T3 are so strong.

We're starting to get off topic here, but I still don't think the issue lies with the soviet tech structure being the issue so much as the units in T4 aren't worth rushing over the units in T3. If there was a shock unit that had as big an impact as a T3 unit you'd see people building T3 and skipping the light vehicles there in order to get a shock unit from T4 that scales better into the late game.

Soviet teching should be:

HQ Cons, Engineers ----> T1 Scout Car, AT Gun, Mortar -----> T2 Maxims, Penals, Snipers ----> T3 T-70, M5 HT, SU-76, ----> T4 T34/76, Kat, SU-85

Ostheer teching should be:

HQ Pios, Grens ----> T1 MG42,Mortar, Pak, HT -----> T2 AT HT, Sniper, 222, Pgrens ----> T3 StuG III, Ostwind, Pwerfer ----> T4 Panther, PIV, Sturmpanzer

USF teching should be:

HQ Ech, Rifles ----> T1 .50 cal, AT Gun, M10, BARS/nades ----> T2 Stuart, AA HT, Pack Howi, Zooks -----> T3 Sherman, M36, Scott, Pershing

OKW teching should be:

HQ Kubel, Rack, Sturms, MG34, IR HT ------> T1 Volks, AA HT, Puma, ISG ---- T2 Obers, Luchs, Stuka, JPIV ----> T3 Panther, KT, PIV

Im in favor of picking 2 builings before you allowed to build T4.

I think that would actually be perfect.

+1

Well the first tier is free so that would be only 50 + 90 fuel to unlock Katyusha's and T34/85's. A tad problematic that.

Well the first tier is free so that would be only 50 + 90 fuel to unlock Katyusha's and T34/85's. A tad problematic that.

How is the first tier free?

you can still get your non doctrinal medium out faster than ostheer if you choose not to build any units out of T3.

at the end can you agree you wasnt right there?

1. OH can get callin medium faster in all games even in theory.
2. OH can get non callin medium faster all games in reality.
Faster means a lot faster I think. Cuz its not possible to play only T2 units into T4. And you have to spend fuel into 1 t70 at least. And in the begining germ T1 > sov T2. Dont forget about germ opening +1 unit advantage.
Plus anyone forgeting that cons' 2 grenades upgrades cost 25 fuel each. OH costs nothing it come with BF1.

its not important calllin or non callin. What important is unit type.

Linear teching is terrible and a lazy approach to balance. Unit timing imbalances are a good thing so long as it works both ways. That said, swapping P4 with Panzerwerfer is interesting.

@Festive what ways did Soviet tech become less restrictive? To me it feels more restrictive with T3 units coming every game and T4 units being used less. Are you are talking about a shift away from the T34/85 call-in meta? Personally I would sometimes rush Soviet T4, but as long as T3 is this good and a requirement I don't think 4 is very worthwhile. Ost T4 could use some love too.

@Festive what ways did Soviet tech become less restrictive? To me it feels more restrictive with T3 units coming every game and T4 units being used less. Are you are talking about a shift away from the T34/85 call-in meta? Since nobody rushes Ost T4 I think improving it would be better than using that as a reason for the Sov T3 requirement.

Obviously its more restrictive now. But I still play into t34/85 esp vs OKW. But now I can get a single 85 while previously i had 2 of them at that moment. And I have lees units on the way to 85.
In general its easier vs OKW. You can skip T1 there.

How is the first tier free?

Starting fuel? Every faction in the game starts with enough fuel to construct their first Tier except USF.

Relic would have to increase the cost for both tier buildings then because their current cost would be too low.

I think it's fine the way it is. A T-34 can arrive at the same time where an OST player can get a T3 vehicle himself and it counters Ostwinds and (with flanking) StuGs. And it's easily replaceable (although I'd like to see its pop cap reduced to 8).

You don't need to rush T-34s anyway. Against enemy medium armor you can get multiple SU-76s.

I have to agree with Gabba here because if Soviet T4 did not require T3 then T34s would dominate since they are cheap and are going be effective in numbers. Also if you go to T4 you can get a T34/76 the same time an ostheer can get his p4. Imagine if Soviet T4 could be built right away, T34/76s would come out and maybe wreck ostheer before his T3 vehicle can arrive since T3476s as they are 80 fuel since they are crap they can destroy in decent numbers produced.

Its also delays kats too much. I don't like soviets tier changes at all even with all benefits from quad and su76.

Basically t3 is op and t4 is useless.

Su85 is apparently useless along with the T34/76 and Katty since they are not worth it oddly. Also as I have heard from Gabba if a Soviet T4 Vehicle can arrive at the same time as an ostheer t3 unit then what is wrong?