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russian armor

Undo Soviet T3 before T4 requirement

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11 Aug 2015, 05:11 AM
#41
avatar of WhySooSerious

Posts: 1248

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2015, 04:38 AMaaa


at the end
1. OH can get callin medium faster in all games even in theory.
2. OH can get non callin medium faster all games in reality.
Faster means a lot faster I think. Cuz its not possible to play only T2 units into T4. And you have to spend at least more 70 fuel into 1 t70. And in the begining germ T1 > sov T2. Dont forget about germ opening +1 unit advantage.
Plus anyone forgeting that cons' 2 grenades upgrades cost 25 fuel each. OH costs nothing it come with BF1.

its not important calllin or non callin. What important is unit type.


So Gabba here says that Soviet T4 unit and Ostheer T3 unit comes at about the same time and you say that they don't I am literally confused here.
11 Aug 2015, 05:13 AM
#42
avatar of WhySooSerious

Posts: 1248

Unless things get adjusted, we'd have very early T-34/76s rolling around the field... Or people would would just stick with T3 because of units like the Quad which trade durability for utility, shock value and high killing power versus our generalist tank which is actually more of a meatshield/steam roller.


+1
11 Aug 2015, 05:32 AM
#43
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

Ostheer T3 is equivalent to Soviet T3 + T4. Like T4 in the sense it gives you a MBT and TD but like T3 in the sense you don't really need to go past it.
11 Aug 2015, 05:56 AM
#44
avatar of FestiveLongJohns
Patrion 15

Posts: 1157 | Subs: 2


@Festive what ways did Soviet tech become less restrictive? To me it feels more restrictive with T3 units coming every game and T4 units being used less. Are you are talking about a shift away from the T34/85 call-in meta? Personally I would sometimes rush Soviet T4, but as long as T3 is this good and a requirement I don't think 4 is very worthwhile. Ost T4 could use some love too.


Because pre patch it wasn't viable to tech AT ALL. With the current tech structure it actually makes sense to tech in nearly every game. How is that not less restrictive? Did you forget how much of a fuel sink it was to tech for the mediocre units you got for it? Stalling for call ins was always more optimal.

Pre patch you were stuck with a horribly binary decision between an AI tier (T34/T70/M5) or an AT tier (SU-85/Katty/SU-76). Their cost made it impractical to get both and you were forced to supplement this decision with a commander choice, of which you only get 3 of. It doesn't get much more restrictive than that. You're argument isn't that the soviet tech structure is bad or inflexible, it's that T3 units are so cost effective at the time they arrive that it makes no sense to rush a T4 unit.
11 Aug 2015, 06:33 AM
#45
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2015, 04:28 AMVonIvan

How is the first tier free?



Because you start with 50 fuel, so the first 50 fuel to build T1 / T2 doesn't matter. The only way you could possibly start without enough fuel is if the first thing you did was research Molotovs and/or AT Grenades.
aaa
11 Aug 2015, 06:37 AM
#46
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1487



Because pre patch it wasn't viable to tech AT ALL.


im sorry it was viable to tech pre patch. Non nerfed tank hunter into 1-2 T34/76 was pretty strong.
Tech to 76 was used even without TH by best players.
If you dont finish game with 76 then tech to SU85 or Katy and win with it.
Or if he is turtling then fast tech to katy - very strong that was.
11 Aug 2015, 07:26 AM
#47
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

Don't understand the aim of the topic, if you don't want to build T3 units and rush T4, just do it. See the T3 as a resource tax to be able to unlock T4.

Tiers prices has been reduced, before it was almost impossible to build T3+T4 + units. Now it is possible with the only downside to build every time T3 even if you want to rush T4.
11 Aug 2015, 12:43 PM
#48
avatar of Blalord

Posts: 742 | Subs: 1

Yeah, T34-85 rush
11 Aug 2015, 14:40 PM
#49
avatar of broodwarjc

Posts: 824

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2015, 12:43 PMBlalord
Yeah, T34-85 rush


This would be the biggest problem, getting REALLY early T34/85 tanks.

T4 has better late game counters than T3 you basically have to gamble that you can win with T3 stuff or that you can hold on until T4. This is much the same with OH, where you can build T3 and try to win in the "late" mid game/"early" late game or go for T4 for late game armor.

The two factions that differ from this system are OKW and USF, USF only has medium tanks so they get theirs in the mid game regardless. The OKW get late game armor earlier, but must preserve it or be stuck for a long stretch without armor due to fuel penalty.

This is IMO the intended teching schemes that Relic have currently implemented and I like it. It gives the factions some uniqueness and requires some gamble/strategic planning on each factions part.

11 Aug 2015, 14:48 PM
#50
avatar of Jadame!

Posts: 1122

Su85 is apparently useless along with the T34/76 and Katty since they are not worth it oddly. Also as I have heard from Gabba if a Soviet T4 Vehicle can arrive at the same time as an ostheer t3 unit then what is wrong?


Why you want su85 over bigger number of su76s?

Why you want t34/76 at all?

Kat is good, but, as i wrote it comes too late. 2 or even more minutes difference is significant and have very big effect in close game.

And the main question is why you want give ostheer free mid game without building quad? If they are not desperately bad you would be pushed from map with ht+grenblob and i wish you luck retaking your cutoff with t34/76 which would miss 9 of 10 shots.

Useless may be too big of a world but for me sov t4 overshadowed by t3.
aaa
11 Aug 2015, 15:11 PM
#51
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1487

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2015, 14:48 PMJadame!

Why you want su85 over bigger number of su76s?

Im sorry su76 is shit vs everything. SU85>>su76.
having su76 is the best way to give jagpanz free vets. After that its becoming cheat invincible unit one shooting tanks.
11 Aug 2015, 16:21 PM
#52
avatar of Snipester
Patrion 39

Posts: 102

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2015, 14:48 PMJadame!


Why you want su85 over bigger number of su76s?

Why you want t34/76 at all?

Kat is good, but, as i wrote it comes too late. 2 or even more minutes difference is significant and have very big effect in close game.

And the main question is why you want give ostheer free mid game without building quad? If they are not desperately bad you would be pushed from map with ht+grenblob and i wish you luck retaking your cutoff with t34/76 which would miss 9 of 10 shots.

Useless may be too big of a world but for me sov t4 overshadowed by t3.


The same could be said about Ostheer T4. For Ost, everything T4 does T3 does for a lot cheaper and arguably better. Katy comes a lot later now, yes, but I don't find that to be a good talking point. The Panzerwerfer has always come late, and it has sucked balls for a long time, too. At least the Katy is still a solid artillery piece.


11 Aug 2015, 16:28 PM
#53
avatar of miragefla
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2015, 15:11 PMaaa

Im sorry su76 is shit vs everything. SU85>>su76.


60 range, a penetration value of 200/190/180, total reload speed of 3.775-4.275 + (2.9-3.4 + 0.875 winddown), 120 damage, a barrage ability on a mobile vehicle worth only 280mp/75fuel and available very early on? I'll take two please.
11 Aug 2015, 16:37 PM
#54
avatar of Jadame!

Posts: 1122

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2015, 15:11 PMaaa
Im sorry su76 is shit vs everything. SU85>>su76. having su76 is the best way to give jagpanz free vets. After that its becoming cheat invincible unit one shooting tanks.


I assume you never spammed su76s hard enough. 4 su76s rape poor jagd into oblivion, only difference here is that you need spotter for them. On top of cheaper cost you would have arty barrages with possibility to wipe squads in first shot with RNG god blessing. For me choice is obvious.




The same could be said about Ostheer T4. For Ost, everything T4 does T3 does for a lot cheaper and arguably better. Katy comes a lot later now, yes, but I don't find that to be a good talking point. The Panzerwerfer has always come late, and it has sucked balls for a long time, too. At least the Katy is still a solid artillery piece.



Yep but you cant compare things out of context. Difference is soviets, at least in team games, need katy to fight okw and lmg gren blobs, but Wehr can live with mortar ht just fine.
nee
11 Aug 2015, 17:24 PM
#55
avatar of nee

Posts: 1216

A bit pointless IMO, I mean the only real reason to go for T4 is katyusha- T34 and SU85 can be easily replaced by SU76
11 Aug 2015, 18:52 PM
#56
avatar of Budwise
Admin Red  Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2075 | Subs: 2

I agree. Linear tech trees are never a good solution. vCOH Brits taught us that years ago.
11 Aug 2015, 19:01 PM
#57
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2015, 18:52 PMBudwise
I agree. Linear tech trees are never a good solution. vCOH Brits taught us that years ago.


Due to how build orders work (you always got for the best, not second best) non-linear tech tree's typically result in extremely stale meta. Sure you can vary units between each level of teching in order to give choice, but non-linear teching isn't healthy when you have a game balanced around unit timing.
11 Aug 2015, 19:12 PM
#58
avatar of Budwise
Admin Red  Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2075 | Subs: 2



Due to how build orders work (you always got for the best, not second best) non-linear tech tree's typically result in extremely stale meta. Sure you can vary units between each level of teching in order to give choice, but non-linear teching isn't healthy when you have a game balanced around unit timing.


Id disagree. Just because KCH in vCOH were the best infantry Wehr had didn't mean people rushed for them every game. Adjust cost accordingly with timing and you force the player to make a choice, a strategic choice at that. Making the teching linear removes those choices and the possibility that the player may choose wrong or right and therefore win or lose a fight or game. With a linear tree you know exactly what progression you must do, there is no changing your mind or back teching, or choosing wrong. You may choose the wrong unit in a tech tree but you can't tech wrong.

Also I'm not saying make it completely un-linear, just require T1 or T2 before building T4 just like it was. The Quad and SU76 are plenty good now, I don't think people feel the need to rush T4 anymore. And if it gets to where T4 is too good and everyone goes it then adjust accordingly with fuel, not make the teching linear.
11 Aug 2015, 19:16 PM
#59
avatar of Spanky
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1820 | Subs: 2

I started playing soviets again after 2 year hiatus because of these changes, i like it, it rewards combined arms!
11 Aug 2015, 20:02 PM
#60
avatar of What Doth Life?!
Patrion 27

Posts: 1664

Im in favor of picking 2 builings before you allowed to build T4.

I think that would actually be perfect.


Globviously... FLUH +1
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