It only makes sense to require one late game tier before the next if it is like Ostheer (research in order but you choose what to build and they cost less). You shouldn't be required to make 2 armor tech buildings if you just want to produce from one of them. Not only does it make teching more linear (making good T3 units like Quad and SU76 are fucking no brainers when you are forced to make that building anyway), but it delays T34 too much for only being medium armor. If you want to rush T34 you should get at least some shock value from that, only a complete fucktard can be caught unprepared for medium armor when it doesn't hit until around 15 minutes or later.
I know some Axis fanboy is going to say "but Soviets are already too strong blah blah blah" but this change would only decrease the frequency you are seeing some of their current strongest units, and in the next patch they might not be the best faction anymore.
Undo Soviet T3 before T4 requirement
10 Aug 2015, 22:31 PM
#1
Posts: 1944 | Subs: 2
10 Aug 2015, 22:39 PM
#2
Posts: 928
Have to agree with you, I think the whole T3 before T4 requirement is not good.
As the current arrangement of vehicles stands, its not far away from the American arrangement in VCoH, but they never had a T3 before T4 requirement.
Yet, VCoH works.
As the current arrangement of vehicles stands, its not far away from the American arrangement in VCoH, but they never had a T3 before T4 requirement.
Yet, VCoH works.
Had fun doing this earlier
10 Aug 2015, 22:43 PM
#3
3 
Posts: 658
Relic would have to increase the cost for both tier buildings then because their current cost would be too low.
I think it's fine the way it is. A T-34 can arrive at the same time where an OST player can get a T3 vehicle himself and it counters Ostwinds and (with flanking) StuGs. And it's easily replaceable (although I'd like to see its pop cap reduced to 8).
You don't need to rush T-34s anyway. Against enemy medium armor you can get multiple SU-76s.
I think it's fine the way it is. A T-34 can arrive at the same time where an OST player can get a T3 vehicle himself and it counters Ostwinds and (with flanking) StuGs. And it's easily replaceable (although I'd like to see its pop cap reduced to 8).
You don't need to rush T-34s anyway. Against enemy medium armor you can get multiple SU-76s.
10 Aug 2015, 22:45 PM
#4
Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2
Permanently BannedNO
There is no recording in all WW2 history of a piat actually knocking off a vehicle. Yes, it was THAT bad.
10 Aug 2015, 23:06 PM
#5
Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13
Unless things get adjusted, we'd have very early T-34/76s rolling around the field... Or people would would just stick with T3 because of units like the Quad which trade durability for utility, shock value and high killing power versus our generalist tank which is actually more of a meatshield/steam roller.
10 Aug 2015, 23:07 PM
#6
Posts: 279
As Gandalf stated, you'd have to increase at least the cost of t4 if you remove the prerequisite. However...
Increase it too much, and you'll never see t3 + t4 in games.
Increase it too little, and t-34 rush will dominate.
Removing t3 requirement would also destroy the "light vehicle play phase" that Relic wants to extend.
Finally, it would push the Soviet meta back into needing call-ins again, which sucks big time. In the end, it would do more harm than good at this point.
I think requiring t3 for t4 is the simplest and most elegant way for the game to do a light vehicle --> medium vehicle transition. Too many more problems would rise from changing it now.
Increase it too much, and you'll never see t3 + t4 in games.
Increase it too little, and t-34 rush will dominate.
Removing t3 requirement would also destroy the "light vehicle play phase" that Relic wants to extend.
Finally, it would push the Soviet meta back into needing call-ins again, which sucks big time. In the end, it would do more harm than good at this point.
I think requiring t3 for t4 is the simplest and most elegant way for the game to do a light vehicle --> medium vehicle transition. Too many more problems would rise from changing it now.
10 Aug 2015, 23:12 PM
#7
Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1
No.
Completely undermines the point of changing things around and opening up sandbox.
As a reminder T34 still comes before P4, do the math.
Completely undermines the point of changing things around and opening up sandbox.
As a reminder T34 still comes before P4, do the math.
10 Aug 2015, 23:36 PM
#8
Posts: 713 | Subs: 2
I agree with Basilone. Right now there is no decision making involved in the soviet teching process. You decide whether to go T1 or T2 and after that you just follow their linear tech tree.
However such a change would require an increase to the price of the T4 building. To avoid recreating the situation we had in the last patch where you never built both T3 and T4 I would suggest to give a "discount" on T4 when T3 is already built.
However such a change would require an increase to the price of the T4 building. To avoid recreating the situation we had in the last patch where you never built both T3 and T4 I would suggest to give a "discount" on T4 when T3 is already built.
10 Aug 2015, 23:55 PM
#9
4 
Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2
what about a tech option in tier 1 and 2 for some MP and ~50FU that let you skip T3?
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10 Aug 2015, 23:56 PM
#10
Posts: 1487
absolutely. Do it. T4 after any 2 tech buildings.
Was asking for the same http://www.coh2.org/topic/37081/enable-soviets-to-skip-t3
Was asking for the same http://www.coh2.org/topic/37081/enable-soviets-to-skip-t3
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11 Aug 2015, 00:00 AM
#11
8 Posts: 2470
don't do it. this way soviets have more options because they're not shut out of half their units, only 1/4
11 Aug 2015, 00:01 AM
#12
Posts: 1122
Its also delays kats too much. I don't like soviets tier changes at all even with all benefits from quad and su76.
Basically t3 is op and t4 is useless.
Basically t3 is op and t4 is useless.
11 Aug 2015, 00:10 AM
#13
Posts: 4928
what about a tech option in tier 1 and 2 for some MP and ~50FU that let you skip T3?
I think this would be best. Maybe increase the prices of T1 and T2 to that of T3, increase starting fuel to cover the cost of one of these buildings, and then allow players to pick any two buildings and then go T4.
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11 Aug 2015, 00:26 AM
#14
Posts: 1944 | Subs: 2
I agree with Basilone. Right now there is no decision making involved in the soviet teching process. You decide whether to go T1 or T2 and after that you just follow their linear tech tree.
However such a change would require an increase to the price of the T4 building. To avoid recreating the situation we had in the last patch where you never built both T3 and T4 I would suggest to give a "discount" on T4 when T3 is already built.
Rushing T3 and upgrading T4 later is ok, but building T4 then downgrading doesn't make much sense. I would in vcoh downgrade for AT guns but since they come in T2 now that isn't needed.
No.
Completely undermines the point of changing things around and opening up sandbox.
As a reminder T34 still comes before P4, do the math.
Well the point, whatever it was, is dumb. And doesn't matter that one factions unit arrives faster than a similar unit in another faction, those back and forth time windows are interesting. That said maybe Ostheer T3 should cost a little less, a faction should get a good shock unit tank at around 10-12 minutes when they fast tech it and have had a fuel advantage.
Removing t3 requirement would also destroy the "light vehicle play phase" that Relic wants to extend.
Light vehicle now or better vehicle later choice existed. The change removed the choice of skipping a building and holding off for something more expensive (which can back fire if you build the T4 and lose map control before getting a tank).
11 Aug 2015, 00:36 AM
#15
1 Posts: 3052 | Subs: 15
Im in favor of picking 2 builings before you allowed to build T4.
I think that would actually be perfect.
I think that would actually be perfect.
11 Aug 2015, 00:56 AM
#16
Posts: 1891
Im in favor of picking 2 builings before you allowed to build T4.
I think that would actually be perfect.
The Fascisti Will Pay.
11 Aug 2015, 01:05 AM
#17
1 Posts: 1276
I think its fine but I think they should move the 34 back to T3 hardly has anything in it to build due to how useless the su-85 is (that is without the 34/85). Soviets are pretty good right now, the halftrack helps you counter massive blobs, su-76 has rly good pen but shit damage so you can build loads of them and have them be better than the su-85.
I still think the maxim should get a larger fire arc but overall I wouldn't rly touch the soviets except for their commanders that have units tied up in shit commanders.
I still think the maxim should get a larger fire arc but overall I wouldn't rly touch the soviets except for their commanders that have units tied up in shit commanders.
11 Aug 2015, 01:17 AM
#18
5 Posts: 1157 | Subs: 2
I don't see how building T3 and not producing any units from it is any different than teching battle phase 3 and not building the actual building as ostheer. They both serve the purpose of delaying the stronger units from the next tier, except the soviets get the luxury of actually building those units later in the game should they so choose.
You can still rush T4 by not producing anything from T3, although I have no idea why you would. I actually like the soviets in the current state, very flexible, interesting units throughout.
You can still rush T4 by not producing anything from T3, although I have no idea why you would. I actually like the soviets in the current state, very flexible, interesting units throughout.
11 Aug 2015, 01:47 AM
#19
Posts: 713 | Subs: 2
I don't see how building T3 and not producing any units from it is any different than teching battle phase 3 and not building the actual building as ostheer. They both serve the purpose of delaying the stronger units from the next tier, except the soviets get the luxury of actually building those units later in the game should they so choose.
You can still rush T4 by not producing anything from T3, although I have no idea why you would. I actually like the soviets in the current state, very flexible, interesting units throughout.
It is different because you automatically have access to all light vehicles as soviets so there's absolutely no reason not to build them. As wehr you can skip light vehicles/medium tanks and gain an additional advantage from it because you save the building cost which is quite significant.
11 Aug 2015, 01:58 AM
#20
5 Posts: 1157 | Subs: 2
It is different because you automatically have access to all light vehicles as soviets so there's absolutely no reason not to build them. As wehr you can skip light vehicles/medium tanks and gain an additional advantage from it because you save the building cost which is quite significant.
Except the building cost isn't all that significant for T3, you can still get your non doctrinal medium out faster than ostheer if you choose not to build any units out of T3. Soviets were really restrictive and annoying to play with the old tech tree, I like the flexibility it gives now.
I understand what you guys are getting at, but i'd say this is much better than the previous Soviet tech structure. I don't agree at all with the OP that this solution is "stupid" because IMO the soviets feel more dynamic and fun than they ever have, aside from their reliance on call in infantry.
However such a change would require an increase to the price of the T4 building. To avoid recreating the situation we had in the last patch where you never built both T3 and T4 I would suggest to give a "discount" on T4 when T3 is already built.
I like this suggestion, especially when the M5 gets nerfed and rushing a T34 might be worth it
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