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OH has too much in the openiing

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aaa
30 Jul 2015, 12:14 PM
#1
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Though im only 1v1 player. Statistical data shows how OP this fraction is.
http://pasteboard.co/2lo9wZ5a.png

They have too much of versatile units in their T0-T1. Sniper and MG should not be available both that early. One or another. Senior startegist stated that they would basepin anyplayer with that T0-T1. Only thing that stops them from doing that is the fact that they must prepare for tech units which is costly.

Faster allied tech (stuart, M5, t70) balances Opness of OH T0-T1. SU T1+T2+T3 and OH T1+T2+T3 has almost they same cost while this three tiers give OH medium tanks including P4. Which comes too early. I want my IS-2 and couple of ATG ready by the time P4 arrives. kappa

It is right thing consider removing excess of versatility and sinergy from OH opening.
Possible right changes may include
1. Move sniper to T3. And put MG34 on its spot.
2. move p4 to T4. That will allow player to prepare for rushed P4.

serious part is
jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jul 2015, 23:25 PMTatatala
the thread title does have some merit. OH can get a very powerful early game presence out now... too powerful imo.
They are basically one unit ahead of every other faction, after 1st tech, due to starting MP increase.
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Aerohank
30 Jul 2015, 12:19 PM
#2
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"statistical data" :rofl:

Edit: If you knew anything about statistics, you would know that that chart is meaningless.

Edit 2:
jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jul 2015, 12:14 PMaaa

I want my IS-2 and couple of ATG ready by the time P4 arrives.


Sorry, I should have read your post better. I thought you were just a terrible, horrible player. I didn't realize you were being sarcastic.
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G4bb4_G4nd4lf
30 Jul 2015, 12:22 PM
#3
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Sorry, but Sniper at T3?

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Puppetmaster
30 Jul 2015, 12:28 PM
#4
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The biggest issue in 4v4 is the matchmaker. Generally as axis you get matched with people close to your own rank but as allies it is all over the place

Edit: I meant to say that as axis you tend to get other axis players who have a similar to rank as yours, where as when playing allies the ranks are all over the place

(Was writing on my phone while @ work)
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DustBucket
30 Jul 2015, 12:32 PM
#5
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i agree with the sloth, no. Instead of just thinking about nerfs why don't you try to think about buffs to make all armies more playable.
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Aerohank
30 Jul 2015, 12:32 PM
#6
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jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jul 2015, 12:28 PMPuppetmaster
The biggest issue in 4v4 is the matchmaker. Generally as axis you get matched with people close to your own rank but as allies it is all over the place


It's the other way around; unless you are talking about your teammates.

High level players play axis a LOT more than they play allies (~roughly 4 times as many). This means that only a fraction (at most 25%) of top-tier axis games are against top-tier allied teams. The rest (75% or more) have to be played against less competent teams; because after all, for every game with axis, there has to be a game with allies. Ergo the axis have a very high win rate in 4v4. Conversely, an high-level Allied team is very likely to face a high-level axis team because there are 4 times more people of their level playing with axis; ergo the high level allied players only have ~50% winrate.
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Seeker
30 Jul 2015, 12:45 PM
#7
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Posts: 83

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jul 2015, 12:14 PMaaa


I want my IS-2 and couple ATG ready by the time P4 arrives.
1. Move sniper to T3. And put MG34 on its spot.


So... You want a heavy call-in to come out at the same time a stock medium does?:loco:

Also, moving sniper to T3 would make him useless...
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Array
30 Jul 2015, 12:47 PM
#8
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jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jul 2015, 12:32 PMAerohank


High level players play axis a LOT more than they play allies (~roughly 4 times as many). This means that only a fraction (at most 25%) of top-tier axis games are against top-tier allied teams. The rest (75% or more) have to be played against less competent teams; because after all, for every game with axis, there has to be a game with allies. Ergo the axis have a very high win rate in 4v4. Conversely, an high-level Allied team is very likely to face a high-level axis team because there are 4 times more people of their level playing with axis; ergo the high level allied players only have ~50% winrate.


This is logical but you can see the amount of games played as axis / allies by top 200 players in the charts and whilst less its about 2350 axis compared to 1360 allies (4v4 - the worst imbalance of win rate) so the imbalance isn't as large as you say. Also consider another chart (I cant recall where it was) showing the win-rate curve across the entire playerbase which showed a steady but shallow rise until the top 50 where it rose exponentially - the allied teams being played by top 200 will have a broader range of skill than axis opponents but not necessarily by that much. I don't agree with the OP suggestions - but I do think as games get bigger axis gain a large advantage. I think to pull big games back towards a balanced center line needs a different approach - looking at resources and synergy between OH and OKW
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Aerohank
30 Jul 2015, 12:51 PM
#9
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jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jul 2015, 12:47 PMArray


This is logical but you can see the amount of games played as axis / allies by top 200 players in the charts and whilst less its about 6000 axis compared to 4500 allies so the imbalance isn't that great. I'm not smart enough to crunch the numbers but a 25% difference in games played probably cannot fully account for the difference in win rate. Also consider another chart (I cant recall where it was) showing the win-rate curve across the entire playerbase which showed a steady but shallow rise until the top 50 where it rose exponentially - the allied teams being played by top 200 will have a broader range of skill than axis opponents but not necessarily by that much. I don't agree with the OP suggestions - but I do think as games get bigger axis gain a large advantage. I think to pull big games back towards a balanced center line needs a different approach - looking at resources and synergy between OH and OKW


I am not sure about where you got the 4500 vs 6000 games; but this chart shows ~2500 axis vs ~800 allied top games. That means that at the very least, 1700 of those top 200 axis games were against allied teams that were not in the top 200. This would explain the win-rates reasonably well.
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Array
30 Jul 2015, 12:52 PM
#10
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sorry I have edited my post to discuss only 4v4 and Im looking at the stats for this week
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Imagelessbean
30 Jul 2015, 12:58 PM
#11
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jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jul 2015, 12:32 PMAerohank


It's the other way around; unless you are talking about your teammates.

High level players play axis a LOT more than they play allies (~roughly 4 times as many). This means that only a fraction (at most 25%) of top-tier axis games are against top-tier allied teams. The rest (75% or more) have to be played against less competent teams; because after all, for every game with axis, there has to be a game with allies. Ergo the axis have a very high win rate in 4v4. Conversely, an high-level Allied team is very likely to face a high-level axis team because there are 4 times more people of their level playing with axis; ergo the high level allied players only have ~50% winrate.


This is true, but I suspect the reason you don't see as many high level allied players is because of the pain of playing Allies in 4v4. I may be a high ranking Axis player in 4v4, but I would never want to play Allies random in 3v3+. To win as Allies in larger games you must have coordination, and even then a equally skilled team of Axis will always win.
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Array
30 Jul 2015, 13:01 PM
#12
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I would also urge you to consider you actual experience in game - do you not find in large games that the increased resources squeeze the early game window for Allies to shine (soviet tier3 last a few minutes at best) and axis late game just gets stronger and stronger as elite infantry appear, vet stacks up with better scaling than allied units, shrek blobs develop and panthers (with smoke so they escape with vet) backed by jagdtigers and shreks negate all allied armour?

Im playing at technically a much lower level but still have very competitive matches. I have have a great early game as allied taking both fuels and inflicting significant casualties on the axis but time and again they are able to slowly come back and outclass all my units. Aspects like the okw forward hq's (tough unlike ambulances) just assist this.
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aaa
30 Jul 2015, 13:26 PM
#13
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Posts: 1487

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jul 2015, 13:01 PMArray
do you not find in large games that the increased resources squeeze the early game window for Allies to shine (soviet tier3 last a few minutes at best) and axis late game just gets stronger and stronger as elite infantry appear, vet stacks up with better scaling than allied units


Yeah I think so. OH panz4 or ostwind rampage window comes just after sov T3 window.
Sov player cant get single T4 unit or any medium tank by that time. Acctualy its not even a option to try in a close game. He must get whole new T2 and 1 ZIS firts then tech to T4.

Ostwind btw just melts M5 and everithing you have by the time it arrives. But its not a balance issue for axis fanboys.
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Ace of Swords
30 Jul 2015, 13:33 PM
#14
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jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jul 2015, 13:26 PMaaa


Yeah I think so. OH panz4 or ostwind rampage window comes just after sov T3 window.
Sov player cant get single T4 unit or any medium tank by that time. Acctualy its not even a option to try in a close game. He must get whole new T2 and 1 ZIS firts then tech to T4.

Ostwind btw just melts M5 and everithing you have by the time it arrives. But its not a balance issue for axis fanboys.


Yeah poor soviets, they are so up and their t3 is so bad, damn they need to buff that su-76 it's a totally useless unit.
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Array
30 Jul 2015, 13:35 PM
#15
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jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jul 2015, 13:33 PMAce of Swords


Yeah poor soviets, they are so up and their t3 is so bad, damn they need to buff that su-76 it's a totally useless unit.




in a big game axis infantry have shreks really quickly and they pop su76 like balloons
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Alexzandvar
30 Jul 2015, 13:38 PM
#16
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jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jul 2015, 13:35 PMArray


in a big game axis infantry have shreks really quickly and they pop su76 like balloons


SU-76's have like 25 more range than Shreks do. Use the barrage on it or support your SU-76's with an M5 which does fantastic AoE suppression.
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Blalord
30 Jul 2015, 13:50 PM
#17
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jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jul 2015, 13:26 PMaaa


Yeah I think so. OH panz4 or ostwind rampage window comes just after sov T3 window.
Sov player cant get single T4 unit or any medium tank by that time. Acctualy its not even a option to try in a close game. He must get whole new T2 and 1 ZIS firts then tech to T4.

Ostwind btw just melts M5 and everithing you have by the time it arrives. But its not a balance issue for axis fanboys.


- You mean, SU need to build a ZIS after 8 min ?! or even need to macro to kill P4 and Ostwind with Su-76 ? i'am out of here, too much skill involved

- M5 btw just melts 222/Flaktrack/FHT and everithing you have by the time it arrives. But its not a balance issue for ally fanboys. (fixed for you)

- Maybe you should create a Ostwind OP Thread ? ( would be funny )

- Are you the Ally version of Vertlolcake ?
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Array
30 Jul 2015, 13:55 PM
#18
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jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jul 2015, 13:38 PMAlexzandvar


SU-76's have like 25 more range than Shreks do. Use the barrage on it or support your SU-76's with an M5 which does fantastic AoE suppression.


This can work for a little while but you well know good players dont hang around under a barrage and the range is irrelevant when the infantry are advancing and use groups of shreks - they only need one volley to kill a vehicle then hit retreat (to their hq round the corner) before coming back for the other one. frequently they use a pak too which can fir freely as the vehicles engage the infantry (or the other way round.)

Even if you survive your normally pushed back and are therefore no longer defending the fuel or position you intended.

This is not to say they aren't good units but in big games soviet t3 is much less powerful and easily counterable due to increased flanking, amount of enemy and plentiful munis. Last night a single flanking puma destroyed my tier 3 defence (as it should) but it wasnt exactly hard for my opponent. The puma is doctrinal but with 4 axis players one of them can afford it.
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__deleted__
30 Jul 2015, 13:59 PM
#19
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:foreveralone:I remember the cries about soviets being op and call in cancer meta. Now that OH isn't useless anymore, they are op? lol

Is ostheer way to effective vs USF? Yes , but that is due to the fact that the USF faction's design is flawed, let alone it's early opening being totally limited to one viable opening.

Do not overnerf Ostheer, it has seen to many dark days. If anything, USF needs more viable options at the start and a mortar.
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Alexzandvar
30 Jul 2015, 14:03 PM
#20
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I hate to say it but you should probably learn to mine spam more. It works wonders for shutting down flanking (god knows Iv ruined enough peoples days using Puma's to know it). The few times Iv done Allied AT matches this patch Iv found zero reason to go for T4.


Spam SU-76's/M5's ---> Howitzer or Heavy Call in ---> Victory! Is how most of my games have gone.

Also another tip when barraging using multiple SU-76's, always spread them out so they cover a large area in front of you so he can't advance without risking squad wipes. Forward spotters also help reduce scatter.

The maxim also can finally AoE suppress now, so make use of it keep those shrek blobs heads down.
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