SU-76 issues

To be honest, I would lower penetration to 180/150/120 or 180/160/140. There must be a reason to get late game SU85 other than more HP.

To be honest, I would lower penetration to 180/150/120 or 180/160/140. There must be a reason to get late game SU85 other than more HP.

Or we could buff the Su-85s?

Or we could buff the Su-85s?

The thing is the SU-85 doesn't need buffs, it's already p good. The issue is that the SU-76 just outshines it due to cost/benefit ratio and versatility.

The thing is the SU-85 doesn't need buffs, it's already p good. The issue is that the SU-76 just outshines it due to cost/benefit ratio and versatility.

Su-85 good???
let me tell you why its NOT GOOD
1.awful long range accuracy
2.cant penetrate panthers (penetration not good enough)
3.costs too much and cant help you deal with heavies(including the panther) as stated above

nerfing the su-76s will just favor tank rush for the garmans and make the su-76 useless so either increace its durability and cost or dont touch it and buff the penetration of the su-85 to help combat heavys and panthers

Su-85 good???
let me tell you why its NOT GOOD
1.awful long range accuracy
2.cant penetrate panthers (penetration not good enough)
3.costs too much and cant help you deal with heavies(including the panther) as stated above

nerfing the su-76s will just favor tank rush for the garmans and make the su-76 useless so either increace its durability and cost or dont touch it and buff the penetration of the su-85 to help combat heavys and panthers

This is untrue the su85 is a very reliable tank destroyer when it comes to dealing with heavies. It has 180 penetration minimum, which gives it slightly more than a 50% chance yo pen a panther. Thats nor great, but this fact is made up for by the su85's amazing rate of fire. It also costs 120fu, which is online with other TD's (jackson, jp4).

The su76 absolutely needs to be made into an anti-medium td. Currently, it can deal with all threats in groups of 2-3 because it has the same pen as an su85 and a fairly decent dps. This leads to it supplanting any need to tech to t4, since it gives you access to a barrage, and a lategame yank killer.

Make it have 140-180 penetration. Then it will be great vs. Medium and light armor, whilst forcing a player to tech up to deal with heavier armor.

If you think the SU-76 is OP, try spamming shreks and AT-guns with a little puma or Panther support. I hear it works wonders.

SU-76 is very strong towards any blobing infantry, when you have more than 1 SU76 see shrek blob moving towards you, you pretty much know where they can fire their shreks just start barrage that area, if you unlucky you will exchange 1 su76 with 2-3 sq of volks or pgren, otherwise blob AT infantry will lose the fight and you just have a damaged SU76

This is untrue the su85 is a very reliable tank destroyer when it comes to dealing with heavies. It has 180 penetration minimum, which gives it slightly more than a 50% chance yo pen a panther. Thats nor great, but this fact is made up for by the su85's amazing rate of fire. It also costs 120fu, which is online with other TD's (jackson, jp4).

The su76 absolutely needs to be made into an anti-medium td. Currently, it can deal with all threats in groups of 2-3 because it has the same pen as an su85 and a fairly decent dps. This leads to it supplanting any need to tech to t4, since it gives you access to a barrage, and a lategame yank killer.

Make it have 140-180 penetration. Then it will be great vs. Medium and light armor, whilst forcing a player to tech up to deal with heavier armor.

the su-85 in my expiriance is AWFUL against heavys UNLESS i have 3 su-85s firing at them which in turn leaves me exposed to AT infantry units.
i cant deny the crazy vet attack speed it gets but still its only effective vs medium tanks,but cant reliably penetrate panthers,also the su-85 CANT FIRE RELIABLY AT LONG RANGE so if you want to hit lets say stugs i must go at medium firing range otherwise i am done,if they buff its penetration AND accuracy and slight increace the cost then people would have a reason to upgrade to su-85s.

SU-76 is very strong towards any blobing infantry, when you have more than 1 SU76 see shrek blob moving towards you, you pretty much know where they can fire their shreks just start barrage that area, if you unlucky you will exchange 1 su76 with 2-3 sq of volks or pgren, otherwise blob AT infantry will lose the fight and you just have a damaged SU76

And you must blob infantry?

And you must blob infantry?

Yes, because blob is good, blob is life. In blob we trust.

in these days almost all alies spam su76 vs any axis strategies,No adapt.vs AT vs infantry vs tank even heavy tank.....GL

in these days almost all alies spam su76 vs any axis strategies,No adapt.vs AT vs infantry vs tank even heavy tank.....GL

What if I told you its no adaptation from german players who are facing a vehicle they didn't even knew existed for past 2 years and are playing just like they did before when worst they could bump on was clumsy SU-85.

So yea, no adaptation, blobbing of shrecks and frontal mindless charges, place and forget of AT guns, charging frontally tanks.

To me that is no adaptation on axis only heroes side, like you.

What if I told you its no adaptation from german players who are facing a vehicle they didn't even knew existed for past 2 years and are playing just like they did before when worst they could bump on was clumsy SU-85.

So yea, no adaptation, blobbing of shrecks and frontal mindless charges, place and forget of AT guns, charging frontally tanks.

To me that is no adaptation on axis only heroes side, like you.

Adaptation is the name of the game but if you get a unit that comes early and can deal easily with lategame units, you know there is a problem.

If I get Luchs killing IS-2s frontally reliably, no one would be happy.

Balance in a game is all about risk vs reward. The risk in playing out SU-76 is relatively low compared to proper AT guns, but the reward is disproportionally high. That's the main problem with it.

I mean fine if it performs well early-mi game with decent damage + free barrage as it should. It's the endgame performance that I find ridiculous. Buff the SU-85 if it needs a buff by all means.

EDIT: Like in VCoH, Tier 3 in sovs is designed for Early-midgame performance. M5 is the same in both Americans and Sovs, M8=T70, AT = SU-76 except the sovs can get AT and SU-76, SU-76 is mobile and SU-76 has barrage. There is no justifiable reason IMO to give it the endgame performance it has currently.

And you must blob infantry?

well don't ask me, when I spaming SU76 my enemy almost always blobing their AT infantry or AT guns, that is how they take my SU76 barrage on the face.

What if I told you its no adaptation from german players who are facing a vehicle they didn't even knew existed for past 2 years and are playing just like they did before when worst they could bump on was clumsy SU-85.

So yea, no adaptation, blobbing of shrecks and frontal mindless charges, place and forget of AT guns, charging frontally tanks.

To me that is no adaptation on axis only heroes side, like you.

its seems u dont know about topic and what we talking about dear ,np. u said shreck heh as long as i know shreck use vs just armor (not ALL units like maxim or penal shock....... )

Adaptation is the name of the game but if you get a unit that comes early and can deal easily with lategame units, you know there is a problem.

I agree, nerf PaKs and shrecks.

If I get Luchs killing IS-2s frontally reliably, no one would be happy.

Not even relevant as luchs have no AT capabilities.
Now, if we take enough Stuarts and put them against Tiger, you might be surprised a bit.
3 or more Pumas circling IS-2 will give it a hard time as well.

I don't see anything wrong with fragile, turretless tank destroyer being able to take on and destroy heavy armor when massed. To me its WAI.

Balance in a game is all about risk vs reward. The risk in playing out SU-76 is relatively low compared to proper AT guns, but the reward is disproportionally high. That's the main problem with it.

Balance in the game is all about cost efficiency, risk and reward comes with different BOs, specific unit/doctrine usage and the way you actually use the units. Baserushing T-70 is about risk vs reward, making a wall of TD, even cheap ones, really isn't.

I mean fine if it performs well early-mi game with decent damage + free barrage as it should. It's the endgame performance that I find ridiculous. Buff the SU-85 if it needs a buff by all means.

By that logic we should completely butcher all the infantry units, because most of them perform ridiculously good late game.
Again, what do you mean here is scaling. Light vehicles scale as well, there is nothing wrong with it.
Light vehicles also scale nicely with numbers. They still are fragile and have clear counters, Su-76 isn't exception here, it dies to shrecks just like any other armor.

EDIT: Like in VCoH, Tier 3 in sovs is designed for Early-midgame performance. M5 is the same in both Americans and Sovs, M8=T70, AT = SU-76 except the sovs can get AT and SU-76, SU-76 is mobile and SU-76 has barrage. There is no justifiable reason IMO to give it the endgame performance it has currently.

PE T3 was designed for early game harass with 222s and hard AT with light tank destroyer that could be pierced by small arms, it arrived early and units scaled into late game no problem.
Marder III is nothing more then axis version of SU-76, only difference is Marder was pure TD while SU-76 still have that divisional field gun capable of both AT and barrage.

Hell, whole PE army is a proof that lights have all the right to scale into late game and engage heavier armor as long as that is their role.

Adaptation is the name of the game but if you get a unit that comes early and can deal easily with lategame units, you know there is a problem.

If I get Luchs killing IS-2s frontally reliably, no one would be happy.

Balance in a game is all about risk vs reward. The risk in playing out SU-76 is relatively low compared to proper AT guns, but the reward is disproportionally high. That's the main problem with it.

I mean fine if it performs well early-mi game with decent damage + free barrage as it should. It's the endgame performance that I find ridiculous. Buff the SU-85 if it needs a buff by all means.

EDIT: Like in VCoH, Tier 3 in sovs is designed for Early-midgame performance. M5 is the same in both Americans and Sovs, M8=T70, AT = SU-76 except the sovs can get AT and SU-76, SU-76 is mobile and SU-76 has barrage. There is no justifiable reason IMO to give it the endgame performance it has currently.

Su-76 performs well against vehicles, even heavier ones, agreed, has that barrage ability that can kill infantry, appears on battlefield pretty quickly, and can be spammed.
Agreed on all that.

But it has a peel, not an armor, has no turret => it is quite vulnerable. What a soviet player would do? He has the choice of relying on T3 vehicles and wait for call ins in late game like KV1 s, Shermanns, ISU, IS-2. If he wants to have a powerfull army he cannot rely ont T3 and T4 both.
I am telling you that if he relies on T3, he is quite exposed. No doubt quad + su-76 is a powerfull combo, but would that suffise to counter late game german armor? I would say no. Both axis factions have enough tools to deal with su-76s. Considering the efficiency / vulnerability ratio, is Su-76 realy OP? We don't count stugs as OP, do we? Flanking armor will erase all Su-76s on the map, guaranteed. And quickly.

The idea of an extended tier 3 is to push axis forces off the map, esp in a 1v1. If you're not doing it with superior firepower and units with extended tier 3, its not the most optimal use of your resources.

In a 1v1 game, this will deny Germans resources, slow down his tech. By the time the Germans get any heavy armour, its possible to get 3 SU-76s which can by itself deal with the new German tech.

Good luck flanking 3 TDs that can more often than not Penn you from the front, especially on smaller 1v1 maps, it may be easier on 2v2+ maps but not 1v1.

And for the record, the Stug is a dedicated TD, it doesn't have a barrage or any significant AI apart from self defence.

JohnnyB, in your post of cost effectiveness, it seems perfect, but you didnt consider barrage which will always dent early-mid game performance in a way the Stug never can.

The idea of an extended tier 3 is to push axis forces off the map, esp in a 1v1. If you're not doing it with superior firepower and units with extended tier 3, its not the most optimal use of your resources.

In a 1v1 game, this will deny Germans resources, slow down his tech. By the time the Germans get any heavy armour, its possible to get 3 SU-76s which can by itself deal with the new German tech.

Good luck flanking 3 TDs that can more often than not Penn you from the front, especially on smaller 1v1 maps, it may be easier on 2v2+ maps but not 1v1.

And for the record, the Stug is a dedicated TD, it doesn't have a barrage or any significant AI apart from self defence.

JohnnyB, in your post of cost effectiveness, it seems perfect, but you didnt consider barrage which will always dent early-mid game performance in a way the Stug never can.

your too stubborn i will say it again,GO PLAY 40 MATCHES WITH SOVIETS also MAKE SURE THOSE 40 MATCHES ARE WITH REAL PLAYERS and when you do that tell us how op th SU-76.

If you nerf the SU76 you will remove a number of options for the Soviet player since they will need to tech to T4 to deal with late German armor. As it stands a Soviet player can decide not to tech up and use other strategies. If you make them sink another tanks worth of fuel in tech cost than a number of possible options are lost.

Stop trying to counter SU76 with tanks, long and short of it.

The barrage is a nice bonus to the unit but it is only able to decrew paks with lucky shots. With more light vehicle play plan on getting a HT and recrewing paks quickly if you lose one. Paks are extremely dangerous for SU76's. A single bit of poor pathing and they are gone.

As OKW this is even easier. Get JP (or JT), puma, or a couple of rakentens. Mix in some shreked volks to really get nasty.

Soviet T3 is quite good, if anything needs to be done it is just a slight fuel increase to delay their appearance until slightly later.

If you nerf the SU76 you will remove a number of options for the Soviet player since they will need to tech to T4 to deal with late German armor. As it stands a Soviet player can decide not to tech up and use other strategies. If you make them sink another tanks worth of fuel in tech cost than a number of possible options are lost.

Stop trying to counter SU76 with tanks, long and short of it.

The barrage is a nice bonus to the unit but it is only able to decrew paks with lucky shots. With more light vehicle play plan on getting a HT and recrewing paks quickly if you lose one. Paks are extremely dangerous for SU76's. A single bit of poor pathing and they are gone.

As OKW this is even easier. Get JP (or JT), puma, or a couple of rakentens. Mix in some shreked volks to really get nasty.

Soviet T3 is quite good, if anything needs to be done it is just a slight fuel increase to delay their appearance until slightly later.

+1.