M26 Pershing/Calliope Debate

My main complaint about the USF is that unless you pick the Airborne commander, you never really have full access to your entire line of crew weapons.

I believe the info graphic they just released to outline the strengths and weaknesses of each faction said that the USF excels in combined arms.

How is this possible if they don't even have a base line mortar? How is this possible if they have to pick between either a MG or an AT gun?

The fundamental rock paper scissors idea of the game has been thrown out the window with the OKW and USF. USF players cannot adequately answer MG spam or heavy tanks.

When it takes significantly more effort for one faction to counter something that another faction does, it's not fun.

As a primarily USF player, I would like to have access to a complete set of crew weapons after the selection of Lieutenant or Captain. I believe that to be essential. A heavy tank comes secondary to that, for me at least.

This. I hate having to think "Gee, do I want an early game advantage, but suffer in the late game" or vice versa.

Lieutenant should have M20, MG and mortar. Captain should have Stuart, AA halftrack and AT gun. Teching should be progressive as USF, so Lieutenant should be 25 fuel, so you can be in line with the other factions.

Captain should be 50 fuel, and requires Lieutenant unlocked.

These values can be tweaked, though I really want USF to be something along the lines of this.

Also, if they were to add a M26 Pershing, it would be interesting to see the Pershing being a stock unit. It would be in the HQ, only unlocked after you get all the tiers. Cost 230 fuel, 720 MP, could be a little better than the Panther, but also good vs infantry. It can't be decrewed, so to be balanced.

This. I hate having to think "Gee, do I want an early game advantage, but suffer in the late game" or vice versa.

Lieutenant should have M20, MG and mortar. Captain should have Stuart, AA halftrack and AT gun. Teching should be progressive as USF, so Lieutenant should be 25 fuel, so you can be in line with the other factions.

Captain should be 50 fuel, and requires Lieutenant unlocked.

These values can be tweaked, though I really want USF to be something along the lines of this.

Also, if they were to add a M26 Pershing, it would be interesting to see the Pershing being a stock unit. It would be in the HQ, only unlocked after you get all the tiers. Cost 230 fuel, 720 MP, could be a little better than the Panther, but also good vs infantry. It can't be decrewed, so to be balanced.

hmmmm an interesting but difficult proposition tho in my opinion i would like the pershing to have the ability to decrew to repair itself if no pogues or assault engineers are available. as for the decrew abuse exploit im sure relic can find a way to make it work if they put their backs into it

This debate is fascinating.

hmmmm an interesting but difficult proposition tho in my opinion i would like the pershing to have the ability to decrew to repair itself if no pogues or assault engineers are available. as for the decrew abuse exploit im sure relic can find a way to make it work if they put their backs into it

IMO, the decrew exploit is the only way USF can muster the manpower to fight off the OP late game Axis.

My main complaint about the USF is that unless you pick the Airborne commander, you never really have full access to your entire line of crew weapons.

I believe the info graphic they just released to outline the strengths and weaknesses of each faction said that the USF excels in combined arms.

How is this possible if they don't even have a base line mortar? How is this possible if they have to pick between either a MG or an AT gun?

The fundamental rock paper scissors idea of the game has been thrown out the window with the OKW and USF. USF players cannot adequately answer MG spam or heavy tanks.

When it takes significantly more effort for one faction to counter something that another faction does, it's not fun.

As a primarily USF player, I would like to have access to a complete set of crew weapons after the selection of Lieutenant or Captain. I believe that to be essential. A heavy tank comes secondary to that, for me at least.

what is stopping you from going both captain and lieutenant

If those Axis fuckboys get all the good shit then why can't we get one measly heavy tank?

Even if you guys did get your heavy tank, there'd be complaints about how Axis AT would tear it to shreds given how they tend to have good AT as a general rule and it doesn't fix the main issues with USF. And given how late heavies come now, it would unlikely save the day which USF players are likely expecting.

Even if you guys did get your heavy tank, there'd be complaints about how Axis AT would tear it to shreds given how they tend to have good AT as a general rule and it doesn't fix the main issues with USF. And given how late heavies come now, it would unlikely save the day which USF players are likely expecting.

This. Then it'll be like "perishing is not as good as king tiger or tiger ace" and the debate will switch back to how overpowered the tiger ace is everyone complains that their units sent strong enough the line has to be drawn somewhere, ballance is completely subjective anyway.

what is stopping you from going both captain and lieutenant

I'm not the one you asked, but I will just drop the assumption that in order to have some reliable AT in mid game, most people go, let's say, 4 rifles into Captain and then an AT gun. If you go LT first, there will definitely be a point in the game were a vehicle starts to annoy you while you don't have enough fuel to even get the Captain out. It's not a big window, but it sucks regardless. Plus, the LT is nothing else but a rifle squad with a BAR and adds absolutely nothing to the game aside from unlocking the support weapons and the M20, which is not useful against vehicles.

tl;dr LT delays your AT and is nothing but a rifle squad with a BAR

what is stopping you from going both captain and lieutenant

1- Micro in first hand. Lieutenant and captain gives you units that need a lot of micro to be performing and the situation is empiric with time. Vet and late units are at Axis advantage.

2- Game design. If you compare access time to T3 for each faction, going T1 + T2 + a vehicle put you far behind to access T3. Relic didn't design the faction to get its T1 + T2 + T3 but T1 + T3 or T2 + T3 and if the game last long tech back to get what you need.
That wouldn't be that much an issue if the sherman was the Best medium tank in game or USF had a super heavy tank requiring all Tiers to be unlock, but that not the case isn't it?

-3 Lieutenant tiers can't do shit vs medium. Relic can inverse Lieutenant and Captain tiers T1-T2 into T2-T1, would be much more accurate. You need AT early/mid game, and only when you have it in place you can think of AI suppressor.

I understand that's probably not a big issue for you because you have the micro skill requirement to overcome most of USF weakness, but its not the case for everyone.
Now yes, it is just a L2P issue, but that is impacting enough to make people not playing the faction anymore.

A Heavy tank will not save USF for being not appealing, neither a Calliope.

I'm not the one you asked, but I will just drop the assumption that in order to have some reliable AT in mid game, most people go, let's say, 4 rifles into Captain and then an AT gun. If you go LT first, there will definitely be a point in the game were a vehicle starts to annoy you while you don't have enough fuel to even get the Captain out. It's not a big window, but it sucks regardless. Plus, the LT is nothing else but a rifle squad with a BAR and adds absolutely nothing to the game aside from unlocking the support weapons and the M20, which is not useful against vehicles.

tl;dr LT delays your AT and is nothing but a rifle squad with a BAR

I think you underestimate the firepower of the lt squad. Don't forget it also has a Thompson in the squad as well. There actually isn't an axis squad at the time frame it comes out that can tackle the lt squad head on, you need to rely on Mgs or multiple squads to take out an lt. Once lmgs come out you have a better chance, but a smart usf player wouldtry to establish munitions control with the lt so they don't get an opportunity to get lmgs.

Plus if you don't get any light vehicles in lt tier, you can get a captain out pretty fast, and if you REALLY need to deal with vehicles you can always give your RE bazookas after a 15 fuel unlock.

I think you underestimate the firepower of the lt squad. Don't forget it also has a Thompson in the squad as well. There actually isn't an axis squad at the time frame it comes out that can tackle the lt squad head on, you need to rely on Mgs or multiple squads to take out an lt. Once lmgs come out you have a better chance, but a smart usf player wouldtry to establish munitions control with the lt so they don't get an opportunity to get lmgs.

Plus if you don't get any light vehicles in lt tier, you can get a captain out pretty fast, and if you REALLY need to deal with vehicles you can always give your RE bazookas after a 15 fuel unlock.

The unit is ok-ish but the tier is underwhelming on the current meta.

The MG has inconsistent stats (HP, armor, reinforce and cost) with other MGs.
M20 gets hardcounter resource wise with the 222 and it has never been as effective against OKW.
AAHT is still a good unit but follow up to major takes too long and going captain forces you into a heavy mp bleed build.

Zooks are still an "average" upgrade.


The few times i've seen LT, are on "aggro" builds with Elite into E8s. LT been an "extra" Rifleman and just a stopgap for the major.

I think you underestimate the firepower of the lt squad. Don't forget it also has a Thompson in the squad as well. There actually isn't an axis squad at the time frame it comes out that can tackle the lt squad head on, you need to rely on Mgs or multiple squads to take out an lt. Once lmgs come out you have a better chance, but a smart usf player would try to establish munitions control with the lt so they don't get an opportunity to get lmgs.

Plus if you don't get any light vehicles in lt tier, you can get a captain out pretty fast, and if you REALLY need to deal with vehicles you can always give your RE bazookas after a 15 fuel unlock.

This made me think up a way to make LT more attractive: first, LT can have a non-doc upgrade to get all Thompsons to form a shock squad, could really help make up for lack of late-game by being terrific short-ranged AI squad to deal with infantry to help force an early advantage.
Second, all three officer squads could give a discount to things like T0 unlock costs, and getting LT gives a slight reduction to things like upkeep for CPT units, and vice versa. This means you still have dilemma of choosing between tiers, but over time you will gain access to both tiers, as well as becoming more able to field both as late-game comes around. This also encourages combined arms by giving discounts and reduced training times for your stock units, so USF players are rewarded for getting all officer squads out on the field.

I think you underestimate the firepower of the lt squad. Don't forget it also has a Thompson in the squad as well. There actually isn't an axis squad at the time frame it comes out that can tackle the lt squad head on, you need to rely on Mgs or multiple squads to take out an lt. Once lmgs come out you have a better chance, but a smart usf player wouldtry to establish munitions control with the lt so they don't get an opportunity to get lmgs.

Plus if you don't get any light vehicles in lt tier, you can get a captain out pretty fast, and if you REALLY need to deal with vehicles you can always give your RE bazookas after a 15 fuel unlock.

I stand by my point that it still gives you a larger window of vulnerability to vehicles and the slight AI advantage of the LT can never fully compensate for that. Plus it obviously raises your popcap which should be spent elsewhere.

I don't say the unit sucks, sometimes I find myself backteching for example, but considering you always have to expect a Luchs, Puma, AA Halftrack or 222 while only running around with infantry, skipping it is always the way to go. Especially if the enemy manages to decap your fuel at least once.

LT has passive sprint and scales better than rifles with vet. LT tier issues are wonky .50 cal and overpriced M20.

many people seem to think that the pershing wont do much,people seem to forget why the pershing was created in the first place and why it was deployed.

the Pershing is a heavy tank with a big gun,do you know how this will help the USF?

if you dont then let me show you how huge of an impact it will have on the USF performance.

1)Durability,many people seem to forget how bad is the durability of USF tanks,this makes tanks like the panther and the tiger really strong against the USF,by adding the Pershing the Germans will have to face dangerous durable tank,this will allow shermans,artillary and jacksons to deal with the germans without the fear of being killed by a panther,tiger.
2)Gun,unlike Tank destroyers Heavy tanks were not bad at dealing with infantry,with the pershing you will be able to deal with shreack blobs and also treaten heavy tanks like tigers and panthers(remember its a jackson WITH heavy ARMOR and HP while also can fight INFANTRY)
3)Unit Support,if you take the above facts into mind while also thinking about the other units USF will have access to support the pershing,this will make them VERY deadly late game(remember Pershing doesnt have paper armor or health nor it has a bad gun)

the Calliope will provide very good indirect fire support to the USF and allow them to flank enemy tanks safely(by firing at Paks,shreack blobs)
something other units cant provide(think of it like a katyusha with a tank gun and armor/health)

Both tanks will make Late game USF better and also more viable to team based games.

Well whatever, enjoy your awesome LT that runs in open doors while your opponent fields vehicles.

many people seem to think that the pershing wont do much,people seem to forget why the pershing was created in the first place and why it was deployed.

the Pershing is a heavy tank with a big gun,do you know how this will help the USF?

if you dont then let me show you how huge of an impact it will have on the USF performance.

1)Durability,many people seem to forget how bad is the durability of USF tanks,this makes tanks like the panther and the tiger really strong against the USF,by adding the Pershing the Germans will have to face dangerous durable tank,this will allow shermans,artillary and jacksons to deal with the germans without the fear of being killed by a panther,tiger.
2)Gun,unlike Tank destroyers Heavy tanks were not bad at dealing with infantry,with the pershing you will be able to deal with shreack blobs and also treaten heavy tanks like tigers and panthers(remember its a jackson WITH heavy ARMOR and HP while also can fight INFANTRY)
3)Unit Support,if you take the above facts into mind while also thinking about the other units USF will have access to support the pershing,this will make them VERY deadly late game(remember Pershing doesnt have paper armor or health nor it has a bad gun)

the Calliope will provide very good indirect fire support to the USF and allow them to flank enemy tanks safely(by firing at Paks,shreack blobs)
something other units cant provide(think of it like a katyusha with a tank gun and armor/health)

Both tanks will make Late game USF better and also more viable to team based games.

well said

many people seem to think that the pershing wont do much,people seem to forget why the pershing was created in the first place and why it was deployed.

the Pershing is a heavy tank with a big gun,do you know how this will help the USF?

if you dont then let me show you how huge of an impact it will have on the USF performance.

1)Durability,many people seem to forget how bad is the durability of USF tanks,this makes tanks like the panther and the tiger really strong against the USF,by adding the Pershing the Germans will have to face dangerous durable tank,this will allow shermans,artillary and jacksons to deal with the germans without the fear of being killed by a panther,tiger.
2)Gun,unlike Tank destroyers Heavy tanks were not bad at dealing with infantry,with the pershing you will be able to deal with shreack blobs and also treaten heavy tanks like tigers and panthers(remember its a jackson WITH heavy ARMOR and HP while also can fight INFANTRY)
3)Unit Support,if you take the above facts into mind while also thinking about the other units USF will have access to support the pershing,this will make them VERY deadly late game(remember Pershing doesnt have paper armor or health nor it has a bad gun)

the Calliope will provide very good indirect fire support to the USF and allow them to flank enemy tanks safely(by firing at Paks,shreack blobs)
something other units cant provide(think of it like a katyusha with a tank gun and armor/health)

Both tanks will make Late game USF better and also more viable to team based games.

None of these truly help the USF major issues, it would end up being just a crutch, similar to a few patches ago where Ostheer had to just sit and hold and wait for Tigers and Stug Es and hope it would do something when they had all these other issues. And in smaller games the Pershing won't have that many units to support as that's where all the fuel would be going and it'd come late like the other heavy tanks where you'd have either multiple mediums trying to roll over your army unless you invested in your own vehicles that would delay a possible call-in further.

And as I said, Pershing won't be game-changing given that Axis can already deal with IS-2s with their own arsenal of things such as Jagdpanzers, Stugs, multiple ATGs, and their AT in general.


Things USF Needs for its Core

-Riflemen Veterancy:
-Make the accuracy bonus to their weapons that they receive the same as the other faction: 40%. Possibly split it between vet 2-3.
-Received Accuracy bonus to 27-28% from 23%. Possibly split between vet 2-3 if accuracy bonus was also split.

-Bazooka:
-Decrease price to 50 munitions to allow it to be more available as a soft counter/deterant to vehicles.
-increase its accuracy at range to make it more reliable at chipping health.
-Maybe make its penetration flat so not drop-off at range to make it more consistent.

-.50cal: -Increase .50cal penetration from 3.0/2.0/1.0 to 4.5/3.0/2.5, would allow the USF LT tier to have a soft counter to light armour when supported with rifle AT grenades.
-Fix issues/bugs with .50cal such as the overpriced crew, gun health/armour and its vet 2 weapon not having the same bonuses that all MGs got in the June/July patch which Cruzz has stated. Removed received accuracy penalty on the crew.
-Maybe drop cost to 260.

Ambulance: Lowers is population cap from 4 to 2. Yes it can reinforce, but the moment it steps out of the base it's at risk of being on shotted by everything.
-Give it a slow passive healing ability when in the base sector and stationary.

Pack Howitzer: Increase the number of shells on all barrages to make these better at area denial. -Standard HE and WP is 6 rounds, no longer losses standard HE from vet.
-HEAT fires 4 rounds.
-Remove cost on WP to give more incentive on using it over the regular barrage.

57mm ATG:
-Increase its base penetration to 165/150/135 to make it more reliable vs mediums.
-Possibly move to T1 and require any officer.

Major: Major model population from 3 to 1. Makes the whole squad only 3 pop cap.
-Revamp his barrage ability and fix the timer on the drop-time between shells that is currently inversed. Make it have a long cooldown and shorter range a tad, but make it much cheaper/free. Not effective, but it would give more incentive to push him forth and be the heavy indirect-fire unit the USF lacks to force weapon teams to move without mass smoke and be an interesting take on artillery.

Tank .50cals: Cost dropped to 50-60 munitions form the hefty 70.

Add a Mortar:
-Fast rate of fire, good accuracy, access to smoke, lower OHK radius compared to other mortars and less range that is meant to operate right behind the rifles and give them the fire support they need and force weapon teams to move if not from damage, then from sheer ROF.
-Found in T0

Lieutenant: Change to a long-range combat support unit (Modified M1 Garand profile similar to Pathfinder rather than a BAR) with various abilities rather than Riflemen 1.25 like possible auras similar to the artillery officer. Would help him later in the game in toughening nearby USF units while making him not this shock unit that would be followed up by various light armour.
-Starts at four man to emphasize support role. Goes back to five at vet 2-3.

M20:
-Manpower from 340 to 260/280 to reduce that hefty MP price.

AA HT:
-Similar to M20, lower its MP cost to 300 from 360(?). It already pays by having a high fuel cost.

The USF current tank/Major(except the Major himself) tier is actually fine I would say. They all do their jobs as intended, but don't have exactly the strongest core backing them up and in the end. Pershing and Calliope would just be fun toys USF could play with, but are not necessary to win. Ostheer doesn't need Tiger or Panthers to win, Soviets don't need IS-2s and OKW doesn't need KTs so USF shouldn't need a Pershing to rely entirely upon. It's the main core units that should be holding them up.

Yeah honestly just adding a Pershing doesn't really solve anything, people will just always go for whatever commander has the Pershing. What miragfla above me said would indeed probably be the best solution.

I think Relic is sane enough to make the Pershing follow the faction philosophy though, so it'll be like a relatively fast and mobile heavy tank, but with relatively less armor.