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russian armor

M4 Sherman needs cost decrease

29 Jul 2015, 07:26 AM
#21
avatar of The Big Red 1

Posts: 758

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jul 2015, 07:05 AMKatitof
@up
Why if there already is EZ8 and jackson?

because the M4A3E8 is doctrinal remember? if someone by chance or pure bad luck doesn't have that commander it would be nice to have the existing non-doctrinal M4A3 sherman have the option to upgrade to the 76mm gun that way to avoid a pay-to-win like scenario
29 Jul 2015, 07:39 AM
#22
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

You still have jackson.

Why would you want 76mm otherwise if not for AT?

Also there is nothing P2W about EZ8, its one of the most overrated units in game and axis players bitching about it back then is one of the reasons why.
29 Jul 2015, 08:05 AM
#23
avatar of comm_ash
Patrion 14

Posts: 1194 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jul 2015, 07:39 AMKatitof
You still have jackson.

Why would you want 76mm otherwise if not for AT?


The 76mm would give you a tank that would be able to flank and actually pen most German tanks reliably. It would give you more AT and less AI, and it would allow you to use tanks with more HP for AT purposes.
29 Jul 2015, 08:08 AM
#24
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

And jackson gives you TD that doesn't need to flank or even close in and pen most german tanks reliably.

I really can't see the fixation on 76mm.
29 Jul 2015, 08:20 AM
#25
avatar of comm_ash
Patrion 14

Posts: 1194 | Subs: 1

It gives you an option. Say that lategame, you lose all your Jacksons to a Stuka CAS loiter strike. All you have is 2 M4A3 shermans, vs. 3 P4s. Upgrade to 76mm, and you have tanks that can hold the line until better AT can hit the field.

You know, like how they were used in real life.

Its not like Ostheer with the P4, Ostwind, and Stug in T3 don't build P4s because the Ostwind and Stug do their respective roles well. Sometimes you just want a more tanky, mobile, generalist tank.
29 Jul 2015, 08:48 AM
#26
avatar of Blalord

Posts: 742 | Subs: 1

It gives you an option. Say that lategame, you lose all your Jacksons to a Stuka CAS loiter strike. All you have is 2 M4A3 shermans, vs. 3 P4s. Upgrade to 76mm, and you have tanks that can hold the line until better AT can hit the field.

You know, like how they were used in real life.

Its not like Ostheer with the P4, Ostwind, and Stug in T3 don't build P4s because the Ostwind and Stug do their respective roles well. Sometimes you just want a more tanky, mobile, generalist tank.


Sherman will have to lose HE shell, but then it will be a "sort of" easy 8 no ?

29 Jul 2015, 08:53 AM
#27
avatar of comm_ash
Patrion 14

Posts: 1194 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jul 2015, 08:48 AMBlalord


Sherman will have to lose HE shell, but then it will be a "sort of" easy 8 no ?



It wouldn't have increased armor or on the move accuracy. It would be a poor man's E8
29 Jul 2015, 10:06 AM
#28
avatar of ofield

Posts: 420

I think the sherman is fine as it is, and the major fuel increase is no argument, since

1. Captain is 20 f cheaper now
2. Bars and Zooks are in the same package.
3. Wehrmacht has also increased tech costs for t3.
29 Jul 2015, 15:44 PM
#29
avatar of OrionHunter88

Posts: 141

Sherman price is not fine, but you can all live in denial.

For AI Scott is way better, for AT jackson is way better. Sherman loses to P4 so what is the point of Sherman? It's a bit less vulnerable than the others I mentioned but not by much. German AT still has guaranteed penetration on its frontal armor (or extremely high penetration chance) and so we are talking about it being able to take a couple more hits is all. Scott has better smoke too so in some ways it's more survivable.

EDIT: I will say this. As a FIRST tank only it is useful because it is more versatile - but there's little point to getting additional stock shermans once you've started building up your armored force.
29 Jul 2015, 16:49 PM
#30
avatar of Wygrif

Posts: 278

Late game Sherman upgrades would be a pretty good way to unfuck the USF in 3v3s and 4v4s, while keeping the flexible generalist feel they've got going. Obviously it'd have to be cost-prohibitive in 1s and 2s. (And maybe they should be cost-inefficient period, in order to prevent the AT game from getting broken.) But letting them get a 76mm, a plow for a big front armor boost, a flamethrower, or turn into a recovery vehicle would be a lot of fun.
29 Jul 2015, 17:08 PM
#31
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

Panzer IV price is not fine, but you can all live in denial.

For AI the Ostwind is way better, for AT the StuG III Ausf G is way better. PIV loses to T34/85 so what is the point of the PIV? It's a bit less vulnerable than the others I mentioned but not by much. Soviet AT still has guaranteed penetration on its frontal armor (or extremely high penetration chance) and so we are talking about it being able to take a couple more hits is all. Ostwind has better mobility too so in some ways it's more survivable.

EDIT: I will say this. As a FIRST tank only it is useful because it is more versatile - but there's little point to getting additional stock PIV's once you've started building up your armored force.
29 Jul 2015, 17:21 PM
#32
avatar of dreamerdude
Benefactor 392

Posts: 374

you have to ask what is the main purpose for a sherman, and i would answer, to fudge up light vehicles and infantry while taking being able to take a few shots. and it does a hell of a job at it. especially with the mg upgrade kreygasm.

against other medium tanks it would be all about the micro, and the initial engagement, but i think the sherman is my favourite unit in the USF tree as it is sexy in it's role.
29 Jul 2015, 23:42 PM
#33
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

there's a few "issue" with sherman.

it's bigger than your normal medium tank. The t34 76 and the pziv 4 are both size 22, while the sherman is size 23.

this make the sherman a bit easier to hit. As a sidenote the jackson is a size 24. I'm guessing relic want to simulate the sherman's high target profile.

the sherman and the jackson both also have higher than normal veterancy requirement. They both take more exp to vet than the pziv, despite cheaper/same price.
29 Jul 2015, 23:50 PM
#34
avatar of The Big Red 1

Posts: 758

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jul 2015, 08:48 AMBlalord


Sherman will have to lose HE shell, but then it will be a "sort of" easy 8 no ?


well that was the trade-off in CoH1 but instead of having it as a global upgrade i propose of being able to upgrade from the tank itself individually just like the .50cal machine gun so that you can mix and match your shermans to have both anti-infantry and anti-tank capabilities if you get what i am trying to say
30 Jul 2015, 07:33 AM
#35
avatar of Chunkeemunkee88

Posts: 40

As BigRed1 said a little more customization for the USF might be just the thing we need. Mixing and matching parts in order to build a massive force of versatile tanks could work!

So I'm guessing; The Sherman would be able to get a 76mm cannon for AT improvements but at the cost of AI. It would get a Flamethrower for AI but suffer a lack of AT. For defense it could be loaded with sandbags, logs and other sorts of things to improve it's durability abit. Perhaps instead, a veteran vehicle crew could upgrade their Sherman with said bonuses...

It's a worthy idea.

30 Jul 2015, 07:59 AM
#36
avatar of Jorad

Posts: 209

Dont bring Soviets into this and Sherman its not even near the PIV. The Sherman ammo switch can be a blessing and a curse when PIV doesnt really care at whom it fires.
30 Jul 2015, 09:08 AM
#37
avatar of Blalord

Posts: 742 | Subs: 1


well that was the trade-off in CoH1 but instead of having it as a global upgrade i propose of being able to upgrade from the tank itself individually just like the .50cal machine gun so that you can mix and match your shermans to have both anti-infantry and anti-tank capabilities if you get what i am trying to say


Yes, you want the upgrade as not a "global upgrade", why not
30 Jul 2015, 10:04 AM
#38
avatar of Looney
Patrion 14

Posts: 444

Guys, the sherman's great for it's cost. Sure you have to micro more but it has so much more utility then, let's say the p4. Which it can beat depending on your micro. You can use smoke to atack, cover your retreat etc. Imo the price is fine.
30 Jul 2015, 13:02 PM
#39
avatar of OrionHunter88

Posts: 141

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jul 2015, 10:04 AMLooney
Guys, the sherman's great for it's cost. Sure you have to micro more but it has so much more utility then, let's say the p4. Which it can beat depending on your micro. You can use smoke to atack, cover your retreat etc. Imo the price is fine.



These are my favorite. "depending on your micro". hmm SO THE OTHER GUY IS NOT MICROING too?

P4 has a huge advantage in that if a rifleman shows up in front of him hes not too terribly worried about getting engine damage from frontal rifle grenade. For sherman if theres a grenadier coming to the front he has to be hugely concerned about getting engine damage from frontal faust.

P4 smoke is WAAAAAAY easier to micro. If anyones doing microing the P4 wins. Every. Time. Period.
30 Jul 2015, 13:22 PM
#40
avatar of __deleted__

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