the OKW P4--a specialist generalist

Which would require to make sherman cheaper, because its weaker, which would require T34 being cheaper which is just a garbage anyway.

See, this is why you're not fixing stuff that isn't broken, you leave it alone.

T34 is already cheaper, and the Sherman and PIV are evenly matched pretty much. So I don't really why reducing Ost PIV to like 115 fuel would be the end of the world when Ostheer t3 is really expensive.

T34 is already cheaper, and the Sherman and PIV are evenly matched pretty much. So I don't really why reducing Ost PIV to like 115 fuel would be the end of the world when Ostheer t3 is really expensive.

Why exactly does the Panzer4 need a price decrease? It has much better scaling, AT, and vet 1, whilst still being a decent AI tank.

I would like to know your reasons. I see no reason to change the pricing dynamic that has been working perfectly well up to and including now.

I lost a 2v2 to a team where one of the players built 2 or 3 of those. Those things did really well. They're really efficient for the small pop cap that they use and if you let them build up several then you're going to lose.

I disagree with the call to lower the price. It comes with armor skirts and can have five levels of vet.

I lost a 2v2 to a team where one of the players built 2 or 3 of those.

What were their player names?

Why exactly does the Panzer4 need a price decrease? It has much better scaling, AT, and vet 1, whilst still being a decent AI tank.

I would like to know your reasons. I see no reason to change the pricing dynamic that has been working perfectly well up to and including now.

- Ost T3 is quite expensive

- Sherman's have similar AT performance just face more well armored tanks

- If the change sucks just revert it.

- Ost T3 is quite expensive

Because its as powerful as USF and Sov T4, which results in it being as expensive as these.

- Sherman's have similar AT performance just face more well armored tanks

20% difference on long range penetration, which increases even higher considering armor difference between axis stock mediums and allied stock mediums.

- If the change sucks just revert it.

If the change sucks, why implement it in the first place?
Its no rocket science to know that current price to power balance is alright, P4 is superior to M4 and vastly superior to T34.

- Ost T3 is quite expensive

- Sherman's have similar AT performance just face more well armored tanks

- If the change sucks just revert it.

Ost T3:
10 - 20 + 40 + 20 + 45 + 75 = 170

USF T3:
50 - 15 + 120 = 155

Sov T4:
40 - 50 + 80 + 90 = 160

A USF player who rushes their T4 out will be forsaking bars, and healing. A soviet player will not have molos/ AT nade. An Ostheer player can get their tech out 20 fu faster, but will risk no AT gun.

The prices seem fine to me. All the tech prices to reach medium armor are around the same.

So why exactly would the P4 need a price buff? There is no point making a change just for the lols. Changes are only needed if they are needed.

The Sherman has 120.0/100.0/80.0 pen + 160 armor + HE shells

The P4 has 120.0/110.0/100.0 pen + 180 armor + better veterancy

I think ostheer t3 is perfect as is. You get the most middle ground medium tank (better than t34/Sherman, worse than 85/ez8), and fantastic specialist tanks, stug and Ostwind. Any cheapening of pz4 could swing tanks further into axis direction with the superior infantry at options available to them.

The okw pz4 has a premium as well because of how good it's vet is. It starts off with more armor than standard, leading to more offensive vet ontop of the 2 extra levels. Any change to pricing on okw units would be have to also take a look at how good the units are with 5 levels of vet (which IMO is what is causing such polarization of balance in the okw army)

Lately I go T3 with OKW and first make a Puma to counter the light tanks and then go into Pz4's, since they're goddamn strong, but like already been told earlier you have to conserve it to vet 2 to get it to that level.

Ost T3:
10 - 20 + 40 + 20 + 45 + 75 = 170

USF T3:
50 - 15 + 120 = 155

Sov T4:
40 - 50 + 80 + 90 = 160

A USF player who rushes their T4 out will be forsaking bars, and healing. A soviet player will not have molos/ AT nade. An Ostheer player can get their tech out 20 fu faster, but will risk no AT gun.

The prices seem fine to me. All the tech prices to reach medium armor are around the same.

So why exactly would the P4 need a price buff? There is no point making a change just for the lols. Changes are only needed if they are needed.

The Sherman has 120.0/100.0/80.0 pen + 160 armor + HE shells

The P4 has 120.0/110.0/100.0 pen + 180 armor + better veterancy

Soviets first tech is free. The reason why the OKW PIV does just fine is that when it hits the field it can shrug off some AT because it has skirts and it's vet is focused on making it better at what it needs to do giving it excellent scaling. The Ost PIV's vet just makes it more durable (till vet 3 that is) meaning it doesn't really have any scaling till vet 3.

T34/85's and Easy Eights hit the field a lot sooner than they used to, meaning the time the Ost PIV is effective is really small because it won't be long before the tougher more advanced mediums hit the field and just outclass it in everyway.

Not to mention the very high Ostheer teching costs mean that when that Ost PIV hits the field it will already be facing multiple ZiS guns as well as SU-76's.

He included all costs and starting fuel.

E8 and 34/85 hit the field as soon as P4 if you ignore AT nades, BAR upgrades, nade upgrades and ambulance, which obviously allies, especially USF, can't play without.

And stop spitting bullshit about high ost T3 costs, you have the numbers proving you wrong right in the post you've quoted.

See, this is exactly why I'm on your ass-its as in spreading bullshit is in your genes.

He included all costs and starting fuel.

E8 and 34/85 hit the field as soon as P4 if you ignore AT nades, BAR upgrades, nade upgrades and ambulance, which obviously allies, especially USF, can't play without.

And stop spitting bullshit about high ost T3 costs, you have the numbers proving you wrong right in the post you've quoted.

See, this is exactly why I'm on your ass-its as in spreading bullshit is in your genes.

His math doesn't add up. The counter to the Ostheer PIV is only 80 + 75 fuel (since your first tech is free) meaning that already right near the early part of the game the PIV's best counter has already hit the field. The cost for the first T34/85 is 80 + 90 + 130 = 300 fuel, the cost for the first Ostheer PIV is 305 fuel.

And ironically; the OKW PIV costs more than that! But it comes with skirts and actually has vet that makes it scale into being competitive with the advanced mediums like the M4C, T34/85, and Easy Eight so that's okay.

And honestly Katitof? You don't play the game so we can argue all day but I actually play what I preach, you probably should to.

Why are you so keen on using exclusively armor against armor?

Such deep denial about AT guns that you won't even acknowledge their existence?

Also, you can suck me about not playing the game.
My most recent uploaded rep is from last night.

Last time you were seen playing the game was then Queen humiliated you.

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Back to topic

Last time you were seen playing the game was then Queen humiliated you.

Ohhh pls dont drag me into this...

The pz4 I would agree is ineffecient vs the t34/85 in fuel costs, given the 85 takes an entire hit extra, leading it to beat the pz4 in a 1v1

However that ignores the abilities of the tanks, and the surrounding armies

The pz4 has blitz, allowing it to escape shots that would have hit it (an even trade for the less health)

As well, while at guns on both sides are good enough to handle the tanks the pak40 has a lot higher fire rate, and a stun round. Compared the zis has the barrage, taking away its AT power and giving it anti inf.

I think the pz4 is fine in the gist of things. The t34/85 may deserve a slight fuel raise, but its not fair to simply compare units 1v1 without looking at the armies they are in

This unit is my build choice as OKW now instead of Panther. It's a beast against both infantry and Mediums, and really shines at vet 2 onward.

With heavy delay, making it pretty impossible for any faction to wait for call in's, this unit fits perfectly in the game as it stands.

In my opinion the Panther kinda sucks at countering Allies su85s and M36s because its attack range is only 50. I would rather go for JP4 to counter Allies tank destroyers and use Panthers to counter T34-85 blob.

His math doesn't add up. The counter to the Ostheer PIV is only 80 + 75 fuel (since your first tech is free) meaning that already right near the early part of the game the PIV's best counter has already hit the field. The cost for the first T34/85 is 80 + 90 + 130 = 300 fuel, the cost for the first Ostheer PIV is 305 fuel.

And ironically; the OKW PIV costs more than that! But it comes with skirts and actually has vet that makes it scale into being competitive with the advanced mediums like the M4C, T34/85, and Easy Eight so that's okay.

The first counter to USF and SOV armor is the Pak40, which arrives after 10 - 20 + 40 + 20 = 50 fu. Armor never enters the field in an uncounterable state. If it does, it is entering the battlefield WAY too quickly. If you are talking about mobile counters, then for USF the first counter doesn't arrive until 50 - 15 + 120 + 125 = 280 fu. OKW also gets a hard counter to USF armor after 135/.66 = 204 fu (JP4), which is much faster than the USF can get its' armor out. Does that mean that USF T3 should arrive sooner? Of course not!

(BTW, the cost for the first Ostheer P4 is 10 - 20 + 40 + 20 + 45 + 75 + 125 = 295 fu)

You also are ignoring the fact that grenades are the absolute minimum cost the USF will pay while teching, so they are usually 25 fu slower, and Soviets need AT nades, which are also 25 fu.

The cold hard facts show that Ostheer T3 arrives at just the right time. It is slightly slower than rushing allied players would get their medium tiers, but arrives at the same time as players who choose to pay the tech costs for their grenades (which Ostheer pays by teching up).

So again, why does the Ostheer P4 need to be cheaper?

Well as okw people dont necessarily like using racketens. Imo racketens are not a good counter to jacksons and such as a normal AT gun as its so weak and has to move very close to even catch a jackson. A good infantry screen prevents that. Same with shreks, close range relative to the range TDs possess. Imo panthers and jagdpanzers are the only reliable means to ending a TDs life, and even then its not easy. Shreks and racketens will only work due to sheer skill. So when you are fighting someone good, shreks and racketens are basically defense AT and have very little offensive power due to lack of range and mobility.