Soviet T3 need cost increase or Ost T3 cost reduction!

Read what I wrote in response to said quote. And ostheer t2 is what costs 40 fu, not ostheer t1 (which is actually 15 I think)

I know I know.. You are not to be trolled.. Kappa

The Quad is also cheaper fuel and MP-wise and unless flamers and mines are being spammed, you'll probably be able to buy the quad mount the moment it hits the field and then start saving for light armour support with that saved fuel. It's also easier to micro as you don't need to be driving it in reverse all the time.

M5 has 360 degree arc, can fire on the move, and can reinforce.

You can't ignore one of the best parts of an HT

He can, since he likes it

M5 has 360 degree arc, can fire on the move, and can reinforce.

You can't ignore one of the best parts of an HT

k

Right now germs are supposed to counter t70s etc with T3 units pak with help of panzggrens.

Germs:




Germans:

Kappa Germs

Whats with all the fuss?

UsF AA HT always came early and has essentially the same effect as the m5. (if we ignore reinforcement)

Counter the m5 the same way you have countered the m15 for a year.

There are very significant differences between the M15 and the Quad M5. If there weren't any, this topic wouldn't have existed because like you said, you could have countered it the same way we have been doing for the past year.

One of the differences is that the M5 quad can deal with 222s and supress infantry excellently while one the move. It can also reinforce which is a huge advantage that you can't just ignore.

But more importantly than all this, is the fact that the Americans are a completely different faction than the Soviets. Let me explain. First, lets look at the Americans. You can turtle defend just fine against the M15 with PAK40s. The reason why this is pretty balanced and has not been a major problem for the last year is not about the M15, but about the possible follow-ups. The Americans can not follow up with both good AT and good indirect fire options. If they followed up with Shermans, the Pak40s could hold the line, if they followed up with a Scott to deal with the Pak40s, they were left vulnerable to P4s because they had no AT. The winner is decided by good risk-assessment and tactics.

Now look at the Soviets, what do they have as a follow up? Good indirect fire and plenty of AT. They don't have the weakness of the Americans that can be exploited. They can follow up with an AT gun and SU76s to remove and shock value of the P4 while at the same time providing the soviets with the required indirect fire to deal with the Pak40 wall.

In 2v2s with 2x sovs vs 2x Ost, the soviets can both get out a M5 quads at the 7 minute mark, dominate the map, and follow up with a either mix of T3 and T4 units (one goes SU76 spam, the other goes T4 for katy and SU85), or just SU76s, supported with 1 or 2 AT guns and from there on out it's a very quick loss for the Ostheer. Once they have their double P4s out (both have to go T3 as T4 is so expensive it is out of the question) there is enough Soviet AT out on the field to remove the shock value these units would have had when playing against the Americans.

That if the difference between the Quad M5 and the M15.

There are very significant differences between the M15 and the Quad M5. If there weren't any, this topic wouldn't have existed because like you said, you could have countered it the same way we have been doing for the past year.

One of the differences is that the M5 quad can deal with 222s and supress infantry excellently while one the move. It can also reinforce which is a huge advantage that you can't just ignore.

But more importantly than all this, is the fact that the Americans are a completely different faction than the Soviets. Let me explain. First, lets look at the Americans. You can turtle defend just fine against the M15 with PAK40s. The reason why this is pretty balanced and has not been a major problem for the last year is not about the M15, but about the possible follow-ups. The Americans can not follow up with both good AT and good indirect fire options. If they followed up with Shermans, the Pak40s could hold the line, if they followed up with a Scott to deal with the Pak40s, they were left vulnerable to P4s because they had no AT. The winner is decided by good risk-assessment and tactics.

Now look at the Soviets, what do they have as a follow up? Good indirect fire and plenty of AT. They don't have the weakness of the Americans that can be exploited. They can follow up with an AT gun and SU76s to remove and shock value of the P4 while at the same time providing the soviets with the required indirect fire to deal with the Pak40 wall.

In 2v2s with 2x sovs vs 2x Ost, the soviets can both get out a M5 quads at the 7 minute mark, dominate the map, and follow up with a either mix of T3 and T4 units (one goes SU76 spam, the other goes T4 for katy and SU85), or just SU76s, supported with 1 or 2 AT guns and from there on out it's a very quick loss for the Ostheer. Once they have their double P4s out (both have to go T3 as T4 is so expensive it is out of the question) there is enough Soviet AT out on the field to remove the shock value these units would have had when playing against the Americans.

That if the difference between the Quad M5 and the M15.

I have not played the mod. I usually wait until things go live. But I have great respect for you and Comm Ash, so I guess there might be a problem. But don't you think that Germans can stop early infantry advances with MGs, thus delaying Soviet teching, enough to get T3 units out?

M15 is no problem M5 is a problem, since M5 is way more effective.

I have not played the mod. I usually wait until things go live. But I have great respect for you and Comm Ash, so I guess there might be a problem. But don't you think that Germans can stop early infantry advances with MGs, thus delaying Soviet teching, enough to get T3 units out?

Soviets are flexible enough to get T3 out way before you get T3. You also have to consider that the tanks are way more expensive in T3 than soviet T3. SU-76 hard counters Ostwind + Pz4. Stug hard counters SU-76. But 2x SU-76 (which is not strange to see at that point) beats the hell out of Stug-III's.

Soviets are flexible enough to get T3 out way before you get T3. You also have to consider that the tanks are way more expensive in T3 than soviet T3. SU-76 hard counters Ostwind + Pz4. Stug hard counters SU-76. But 2x SU-76 (which is not strange to see at that point) beats the hell out of Stug-III's.

But won't building lot of SU 76s affect the longer game?. I am not denying what you have said. You know more about the problems than me, who has not played the mod.

2x a SU-76 really pushes back your tanks, since they can't get anywhere near. With some Zis-guns it will be even more fun unfortunatly.

What about if the quad removed the ability to reinforce? I also like comm_ashes #2 idea.

I might add that PGrens are not supposed to counter any armour, nor can they. Unless there is a severe micro mistake you will never ever kill anything with Pgrens, all the while running a considerable risk of having your 340 mp/120 muni investment oneshotted...and dropping a Schreck in the process.

Germans:

Do all germans on .org look like the middle of that pic

Yeah against OKW in my experience it results in really "all in" gameplay with a Soviet player rushing T3 and either sweeping the map with the T-70 or Quadmount + some guards being reinforced by it or the light vehicle gets unlucky and dies to some shreks or rackten's and the dude just loses the game right there.

When you´re able to go a Puma I don´t see that big of a problem. Ostheer is just in a disadvantage. Also after my game with the new Howitzers. They´re OP or UP that´s the crappy part of it. But too painful in the ass... Everything just adds up for the soviets. Has to be the best faction in the game now.

When you´re able to go a Puma I don´t see that big of a problem. Ostheer is just in a disadvantage. Also after my game with the new Howitzers. They´re OP or UP that´s the crappy part of it. But too painful in the ass... Everything just adds up for the soviets. Has to be the best faction in the game now.

I mean if you got Battlegroup HQ first. Although if the dude goes guards you will need a rackten or JPIV to deal with the T-70 or Quad Mount since he can kill your puma.

You have already been told why this particular calculation is misleading. The correct comparison would be to compare Ostheer T3, USF T3, and Soviet T4. This is because Ostheer T4 gives you access to heavy armor while Ostheer T3 gives you access to mediums.

The cost to get mediums as Ostheer (T3) is:

15 (B1) - 20 (Start) + 40 (BP1) + 20 (B2) + 45 (BP2) + 75 (B3) = 175 fu

This value is very much in line with the time it takes to acquire other factions' medium tier. 5 slower than USF, 35 faster than Soviets.

Comparing T4 to Allied factions top tier, is comparing the time it takes to tech to a Panther to the time it takes to get a Sherman.

Semi agree...

Although the Brummbar isnt really heavy at all... The Pwerfer isnt worth going T4 for since they halved its rocket count and it has half the rage of the Katyusha. The Panther is the only decent tank in here and even that is pretty meh for the extra fuel you would have to pay to get it. (You could have 2 p4's AND be floating an extra 50 fuel instead of getting a panther).

Id take an SU85 over any of these any day.

I mean if you got Battlegroup HQ first. Although if the dude goes guards you will need a rackten or JPIV to deal with the T-70 or Quad Mount since he can kill your puma.

That´s correct indeed. It just takes too long to have a serious counter to it. A Puma does need 3 shots (if I'm not wrong) to take out the M5 and even if you take it out for 30 fuel 120 ammo you got a new wrecking train Kappa