About the next patch. T70s are coming!

The only thing about the HMG42's AP rounds is that it forces a full reload animation before initiating. Since HMG42s take a ridiculously long time to reload, it is more than enough time for an M5 to mosey on out or through the firing arc.

HMG42's vet 1 ability is most effective when you're able to pre-emptively activate the ability before an assault is launched. This can be a considerable challenge that only gets harder with competent players.

So what's the problem again?

The T-70 and M5 quad mount will hit the field very fast compared to when they used to hit the field.

The T-70 and M5 quad mount will hit the field very fast compared to when they used to hit the field.

So 8 minute Luchs is nice and dandy, but 8 minute T-70 is not?

#adapt

So 8 minute Luchs is nice and dandy, but 8 minute T-70 is not?

#adapt

Except 8 minute Luchs haven't been meta for quite some time but it's not all that surprising you don't know that.

The T-70 and M5 quad mount will hit the field very fast compared to when they used to hit the field.

True but while this is an advantage its also a disadvantage. these changes are directly lifted from the alpha. let me tell you this ost tier 3 >>> soviet tier 3. An ostwind is really going to ruin the day of any soviet player that stays to long in tier 3. Especially on maps where the su76 is less effective.

True but while this is an advantage its also a disadvantage. these changes are directly lifted from the alpha. let me tell you this ost tier 3 >>> soviet tier 3. An ostwind is really going to ruin the day of any soviet player that stays to long in tier 3. Especially on maps where the su76 is less effective.

Ostheer t3 got pushed back. The danger of the T-70 or Quad mount against Ostheer is infinitely small compared to the harm it can pose to an OKW players map control during the first 10 minutes of the game.

Tbh I would be more worried about 6 minute Stuarts but I'm just happy OKW finally has a medium tank

If you lose vehicles to incendiary rounds then L2P. Like lol.

So what's the problem again?

Corrected for starting fuel, Soviets can tech to T3 pretty cheaply at 80 fuel. At 110 fuel they have enough to pump out a quad HT, or they can pump out a T70 at 150 fuel. It's easier to get these vehicles compared to pre-patch where the fuel thresholds were 150 and 190 respectively.

Ostheer tech on the other hand got more expensive fuel-wise. Corrected for starting fuel, and assuming the player builds T1, Otheer needs 150 fuel just to make the T3 building, and 240 fuel to pump out the Stug, the cheapest mobile unit that can deal with the quad HT or T70. The MP requirements to make these structures and battlephases is also considerably higher than the Soviet MP requirements.

The difference between 110/150 fuel and 240 fuel is huge, and made worse by the fact that the soviet light vehicle add a lot of map control. This forces the Ostheer to make T2 for the AT gun, which adds another 20 fuel on top of the 240 required to make a Stug, in addition to also requiring even more manpower for the T2 structure.

Now this is a problem, as it forces the Ostheer to be super-duper defensive for a long time. To see the root of this problem, you must analyse the tech trees and the units available for both factions.
First, lets look at the soviets:
- HQ upgrades (molos, AT nades) are separate from the tech tree and can be skipped.
- T1/T2 offer infantry combined arms and a light vehicle, but one can be skipped.
- T3 can be made quickly and offers light tanks and a sturdy HT, which acts like a light tank due to its armor.
- T4 can be made at 170 fuel and offers medium armor.

Now, lets look at the Ostheer.
- HQ upgrades (LMG, rifle nade, panzerfaust) are cheaper but included in mandatory tech
- T1/T2 offer infantry combined arms and a light vehicle
- T3 can be made at 150 (170 if T2 is made) and offers medium armor.
- T4 is expensive and offers semi-heavy tanks.


Once you compare the two, you will first notice that Soviet T4 and Ostheer T3 are pretty similar. You will also notice that the Ostheer really does not have an equivalent of Soviet T3, and Soviets do not really have an equivalent of Ostheer T4 (which they can optionally make up for with some doctrines).
Now, the one difference of this that is causing problems is the second observation: Namely that Ostheer has to 'jump' from infantry and light vehicles to medium tanks, with no cheap tier with light tanks in-between.

This 'jump' and the fast arrival of have a few nasty implications:
- Light vehicle play with Ostheer gets countered extremely fast by Soviet light tanks.
- Very 1-dimensional play where Soviets always have the initiative and Ostheer always has to defend for a long time.
- Map dominance acquired with light vehicles snow-balls into a huge fuel advantage, further increasing the distance of the 'jump' by reducing Ostheer fuel income.

So... Something has to change...
In my opinion, the 222 could be the solution.
For example:
Increase the cost of the 221 but buff its stats so that it deals with the M3 and can go head-to-head with the m20. Then, lock the 222 upgrade for the 221 behind BP2 upgrade but make it turn the 222 into something that can go head-to-head with the Quad HT, T70 and Stuart. Tune costs where required. The 222 could then form a bridge between Ostheer T2 and T3, so the player wouldn't have to jump.

So 8 minute Luchs is nice and dandy, but 8 minute T-70 is not?

#adapt

allies can get a t70 or a stuart out at around the same time as the luch, which is entirely the point.

the ost 222 is barely strong enough to fight the scout car and the m20, much less the stuart and the t70.

The T-70 and M5 quad mount will hit the field very fast compared to when they used to hit the field.

Still PaK comes way earlier and OKW have Shrecks and Raketenwerfer. T-70 timing will be similar to Luchs. If allies can handle it I am pretty sure Wermaht can as well.

Corrected for starting fuel, Soviets can tech to T3 pretty cheaply at 80 fuel. At 110 fuel they have enough to pump out a quad HT, or they can pump out a T70 at 150 fuel. It's easier to get these vehicles compared to pre-patch where the fuel thresholds were 150 and 190 respectively.

Ostheer tech on the other hand got more expensive fuel-wise. Corrected for starting fuel, and assuming the player builds T1, Otheer needs 150 fuel just to make the T3 building, and 240 fuel to pump out the Stug, the cheapest mobile unit that can deal with the quad HT or T70. The MP requirements to make these structures and battlephases is also considerably higher than the Soviet MP requirements.

The difference between 110/150 fuel and 240 fuel is huge, and made worse by the fact that the soviet light vehicle add a lot of map control. This forces the Ostheer to make T2 for the AT gun, which adds another 20 fuel on top of the 240 required to make a Stug, in addition to also requiring even more manpower for the T2 structure.

Now this is a problem, as it forces the Ostheer to be super-duper defensive for a long time. To see the root of this problem, you must analyse the tech trees and the units available for both factions.
First, lets look at the soviets:
- HQ upgrades (molos, AT nades) are separate from the tech tree and can be skipped.
- T1/T2 offer infantry combined arms and a light vehicle, but one can be skipped.
- T3 can be made quickly and offers light tanks and a sturdy HT, which acts like a light tank due to its armor.
- T4 can be made at 170 fuel and offers medium armor.

Now, lets look at the Ostheer.
- HQ upgrades (LMG, rifle nade, panzerfaust) are cheaper but included in mandatory tech
- T1/T2 offer infantry combined arms and a light vehicle
- T3 can be made at 150 (170 if T2 is made) and offers medium armor.
- T4 is expensive and offers semi-heavy tanks.


Once you compare the two, you will first notice that Soviet T4 and Ostheer T3 are pretty similar. You will also notice that the Ostheer really does not have an equivalent of Soviet T3, and Soviets do not really have an equivalent of Ostheer T4 (which they can optionally make up for with some doctrines).
Now, the one difference of this that is causing problems is the second observation: Namely that Ostheer has to 'jump' from infantry and light vehicles to medium tanks, with no cheap tier with light tanks in-between.

This 'jump' and the fast arrival of have a few nasty implications:
- Light vehicle play with Ostheer gets countered extremely fast by Soviet light tanks.
- Very 1-dimensional play where Soviets always have the initiative and Ostheer always has to defend for a long time.
- Map dominance acquired with light vehicles snow-balls into a huge fuel advantage, further increasing the distance of the 'jump' by reducing Ostheer fuel income.

So... Something has to change...
In my opinion, the 222 could be the solution.
For example:
Increase the cost of the 221 but buff its stats so that it deals with the M3 and can go head-to-head with the m20. Then, lock the 222 upgrade for the 221 behind BP2 upgrade but make it turn the 222 into something that can go head-to-head with the Quad HT, T70 and Stuart. Tune costs where required. The 222 could then form a bridge between Ostheer T2 and T3, so the player wouldn't have to jump.

Correct me if I am wrong but Osther was always about defense. With the support of buffed MG-42 + PaK they should be able to hold on till T3 or T4. I think they do have the tools to do it but obviously we will have to wait to find out. There is no point speculating now as the new patch will change the meta completely! I hope.
This will be completely different game (sort of)

How about we reduce Ost teching cost a bit allowing them to get T3 a bit earlier, but instead have the lmg, rifle grenade & faust require an upgrade costing similiar mp and fuel to what soviets have to pay if they want molotovs and at nades?

isnt the incendiary bullet a different weapon? someone body confirm this plz because the mg34 incendiary is still pretty scary.

It times the damage and pen by a certain amount.

Not entirely correct. It doubles the damage but the penetration bonus for the phosphorus rounds is added not multiplied. It adds 9 penetration for the duration of the ability.

Additionally it also halves the reload time.

Correct me if I am wrong but Osther was always about defense. With the support of buffed MG-42 + PaK they should be able to hold on till T3 or T4. I think they do have the tools to do it but obviously we will have to wait to find out. There is no point speculating now as the new patch will change the meta completely! I hope.
This will be completely different game (sort of)

They always had to be a little more defensive but you didn't need to hardcore turtle every game. Usually you could counter-attack quite nicely after you forced a retreat on some enemy squads. With the new patch this will no longer be an option on a lot of maps due to light tank play containing you.

I didn't think that the changes to the Ost teching were too harsh, but Relic just released a new update to the patch that will address a lot of concerns.

Enjoy:
http://community.companyofheroes.com/forum/company-of-heroes-2/company-of-heroes-2-general-discussion/67-coh-2-changelog?p=188333#post188333

Corrected for starting fuel, Soviets can tech to T3 pretty cheaply at 80 fuel. At 110 fuel they have enough to pump out a quad HT, or they can pump out a T70 at 150 fuel. It's easier to get these vehicles compared to pre-patch where the fuel thresholds were 150 and 190 respectively.

Ostheer tech on the other hand got more expensive fuel-wise. Corrected for starting fuel, and assuming the player builds T1, Otheer needs 150 fuel just to make the T3 building, and 240 fuel to pump out the Stug, the cheapest mobile unit that can deal with the quad HT or T70. The MP requirements to make these structures and battlephases is also considerably higher than the Soviet MP requirements.

The difference between 110/150 fuel and 240 fuel is huge, and made worse by the fact that the soviet light vehicle add a lot of map control. This forces the Ostheer to make T2 for the AT gun, which adds another 20 fuel on top of the 240 required to make a Stug, in addition to also requiring even more manpower for the T2 structure.

Now this is a problem, as it forces the Ostheer to be super-duper defensive for a long time. To see the root of this problem, you must analyse the tech trees and the units available for both factions.
First, lets look at the soviets:
- HQ upgrades (molos, AT nades) are separate from the tech tree and can be skipped.
- T1/T2 offer infantry combined arms and a light vehicle, but one can be skipped.
- T3 can be made quickly and offers light tanks and a sturdy HT, which acts like a light tank due to its armor.
- T4 can be made at 170 fuel and offers medium armor.

Now, lets look at the Ostheer.
- HQ upgrades (LMG, rifle nade, panzerfaust) are cheaper but included in mandatory tech
- T1/T2 offer infantry combined arms and a light vehicle
- T3 can be made at 150 (170 if T2 is made) and offers medium armor.
- T4 is expensive and offers semi-heavy tanks.


Once you compare the two, you will first notice that Soviet T4 and Ostheer T3 are pretty similar. You will also notice that the Ostheer really does not have an equivalent of Soviet T3, and Soviets do not really have an equivalent of Ostheer T4 (which they can optionally make up for with some doctrines).
Now, the one difference of this that is causing problems is the second observation: Namely that Ostheer has to 'jump' from infantry and light vehicles to medium tanks, with no cheap tier with light tanks in-between.

This 'jump' and the fast arrival of have a few nasty implications:
- Light vehicle play with Ostheer gets countered extremely fast by Soviet light tanks.
- Very 1-dimensional play where Soviets always have the initiative and Ostheer always has to defend for a long time.
- Map dominance acquired with light vehicles snow-balls into a huge fuel advantage, further increasing the distance of the 'jump' by reducing Ostheer fuel income.

So... Something has to change...
In my opinion, the 222 could be the solution.
For example:
Increase the cost of the 221 but buff its stats so that it deals with the M3 and can go head-to-head with the m20. Then, lock the 222 upgrade for the 221 behind BP2 upgrade but make it turn the 222 into something that can go head-to-head with the Quad HT, T70 and Stuart. Tune costs where required. The 222 could then form a bridge between Ostheer T2 and T3, so the player wouldn't have to jump.

+1

I didn't think that the changes to the Ost teching were too harsh, but Relic just released a new update to the patch that will address a lot of concerns.

Enjoy:
http://community.companyofheroes.com/forum/company-of-heroes-2/company-of-heroes-2-general-discussion/67-coh-2-changelog?p=188333#post188333

Well i didn't see that one coming. the 222 is now actually worth it. also a nerf to the guard ai

Well i didn't see that one coming. the 222 is now actually worth it. also a nerf to the guard ai

Not to mention fuel adjustments can be made to off set the T-70 "mayhem".

Not to mention fuel adjustments can be made to off set the T-70 "mayhem".

Or axis players would get a PaK 2 minutes sooner then before and actually start using mines instead of spamming LMGs and RGs for a change.

Or axis players would get a PaK 2 minutes sooner then before and actually start using mines instead of spamming LMGs and RGs for a change.

as much as I dislike the lmg42, the grenadier (and ost) are dependent on it. Conscript and rifleman can easily manhandle grenadier in the early game. On a cramped map the ost is constantly fighting an uphill battle.

Most allies light vehicle are practically immune to small arms, with the notable exception of the scout car and the ambulance. The ost might be able to defend with the pak but they are going to lose map control without a light vehicle of their own. Even with the 222 getting the 20mm by default, it's still going to lose horribly against the majority of light vehicle.