Cruzz's The More You Know

It's probably not even that complex, but it has been far too long since I did geometry so you'll have to work it out yourself.



I mean you'll basically be just working out what is the green area enclosed by the blue lines (shots that will hit), minus whatever areas there are where your shot could fall short, overshooting is obviously not a problem as that'll hit the target (for ballistic weapons, anyway), compared to the green area enclosed by the black lines (total scatter area)

Circular segment with h being vertical scatter centered on the centerpoint of the enemy unit and theta being scatter angle, blue lines angle is probably fastest to just approximate, though you could of course calculate it from the simbox size of the enemy unit.

Thanks! I can easily calculate that.

My only issue now is how do I get the dimensions of the blue red box (hitbox)?

Thanks! I can easily calculate that.
My only issue now is how do I get the dimensions of the blue box (hitbox)?

? the hit box is actually red...In addition it is not the actually dimension that you need but the projected ones since it dependents on the angle of attacking weapon....

One probably does not have to use areas but angles for better result...in this case the ration blue angle to total angle...

So it's by design that the Sturmtiger will only abandon while reloading if its health is between 100% and 75% or 50% and 0%? That makes perfect sense!

Hah! I'm pretty sure it's supposed to occur between 50% and 0%, but they messed up removing the 100% to 75% flag.

? the hit box is actually red...In addition it is not the actually dimension that you need but the projected ones since it dependents on the angle of attacking weapon....

One probably does not have to use areas but angles for better result...in this case the ration blue angle to total angle...

I'm sorry I meant the red box I know; I can calculate the size of the projection either way (we have the technology). I just need the size of the hitbox, and I dont know where to get it from D:

I'm sorry I meant the red box I know; I can calculate the size of the projection either way (we have the technology). I just need the size of the hitbox, and I dont know where to get it from D:

You can get the relative sizes of vehicles by opening the .sua files (they're just plaintext so use notepad or whatever your editor of choice is) found in ArtAEF/ArtBritish/etc files for each vehicle and checking out the numbers for scale (you can ignore y as that's the height and on flat ground we're never going to shoot over a vehicle). But whether those actually translate to the same scale as whatever area you'll get out from the circle segment calculation with the scatter values I can't really comment on, hence why I kinda said it's easier just to approximate this.

I used the SGAextractor on the ArtAEF.sga files etc, and when I open the relevant .sua file for the vehicles I am interested in, I get an output that looks like this:

simbox =  
{
	maintain_contour = true,
	offset =  
	{
		0,
		1.40000,
		0,
	},
	scale =  
	{
		1.55000,
		1.44000,
		3.40000,
	},
}
simbox_states =  
{
}

Do I interpret this as "Sexton has dimensions equal to 3.4 x 1.55" (since we don't care about height)?

I used the SGAextractor on the ArtAEF.sga files etc, and when I open the relevant .sua file for the vehicles I am interested in, I get an output that looks like this:

Do I interpret this as "Sexton has dimensions equal to 3.4 x 1.55" (since we don't care about height)?

Yes.

Meanwhile it turns I'm wrong again about the .50cal, because Relic have at some point in the past bunch of patches broken the vet2 weapon change, it does keep the penetration in the actual game. Doesn't get the vet2 setup time decrease though

Yes.

Meanwhile it turns I'm wrong again about the .50cal, because Relic have at some point in the past bunch of patches broken the vet2 weapon change, it does keep the penetration in the actual game. Doesn't get the vet2 setup time decrease though

You beat me before the ninja-edit.

The dimensions look a bit tiny, if that's the value. For instance, King Tiger:

simbox =  
{
	maintain_contour = true,
	offset =  
	{
		0.07552,
		1.75383,
		-0.02290,
	},
	scale =  
	{
		2.34514,
		1.67264,
		4.36910,
	},
}
simbox_states =  
{
}

There is no way the king tiger is only 2.3 x 4.3 Could it be that I have to double the dimensions to get the right value?

My feeling is that X values go from -2.34 to +2.34 for KT, and thus the X size is 4.68. I also get the same impression from the way the offset is coded for the Y-axis; the centre of gravity should be in the middle, above ground. Thus, if Y-offset is equal to A, height should probably be around 2*A.

Cruzz; what formula did you use to output the stats for Volks STG vs Kar98? When I used your formula, I got something that looks like this:

Incorrect graph:
Show Spoiler

Cruzz; what formula did you use to output the stats for Volks STG vs Kar98? When I used your formula, I got something that looks like this:

accuracy*damage*(1+reload frequency) * (1+burst duration * rate of fire)
/
(ReadyAim + ReloadDuration - FireAim - Cooldown) + (1+reload frequency)* (Wind up+Wind down+FireAim+Cooldown+Burst duration)
Wolfram calculation

Not rounding times to nearest 0.125, nor am I rounding to to the last full number for burst duration * rate of fire. I guess I probably should start using an averaged amount of bullets for results that are more in line with ingame performance, it changes the stg44 numbers quite a lot because of how the burst numbers for it are set up.

Volks:
1: volksgrenadier_mp44_smg_mp                           7.81    5.43    1.97
1: assault_pioneer_mp44_smg_mp                         11.11    4.91    1.41 
Volks (old numbers)
1: volksgrenadier_mp44_smg_mp                           8.14    5.62     2.4
1: assault_pioneer_mp44_smg_mp                         11.85    5.69    1.92

Thanks! I found the bug in my code (I wasn't applying the aim_time multiplier to either aim-time durations)



I am rounding number of bullets down (+1), but I am not applying any 0.125-quantization to any of my duration numbers.

Not rounding times to nearest 0.125, nor am I rounding to to the last full number for burst duration * rate of fire. I guess I probably should start using an averaged amount of bullets for results that are more in line with ingame performance, it changes the stg44 numbers quite a lot because of how the burst numbers for it are set up.

How does this 0.125-quantization work exactly? Is it round-up, round-down, or round-to-nearest?

Since I have the parser, and the calculator, I might as well tweak it to output the right numbers.

In the STG44 there seems to be no randomization in number of bullets (rof/burst are fixed), but I see what you mean, there!

Thanks! I found the bug in my code (I wasn't applying the aim_time multiplier to either aim-time durations)

Looks like you're getting the exact same numbers as me now.

Show Spoiler

How does this 0.125-quantization work exactly? Is it round-up, round-down, or round-to-nearest?

I'd assume it'll always round upwards as the other options don't make much sense, seems fairly impossible to test without atleast using scar scripting. I don't think it really matters enough to even account for when just doing general damage numbers, at most it'll mean one more bullet at some specific ranges for some specific weapons.

This came up in a discussion in another thread recently ( https://www.coh2.org/topic/53838/panthers-reload-speed/page/10#post_id548054 )

Cruzz, is there a chance that there actually exists side armour in the game? (at least, statistically speaking)

What I mean is:
- Of course there exist only two armour values (front and rear)
- The angle of impact determines the probability whether front armour value or rear armour value will be used.

That is to say, if you fire from an 85% degree angle there is higher chance your penetration will be tested vs front armour.

To give you an example of the tests I did, here is the setup:
(T34/76 vs OST P5)

Test1

(Picture)
Show Spoiler

Raw results:
Show Spoiler

My interpretation of the results:
Show Spoiler

Test2

(Picture)
Show Spoiler

Raw results:
Show Spoiler

Processed results:
Show Spoiler

Given that the accuracy of the T-34 vs the Panther at that range should be about 60%, I would expect either the front armour to be used mostly (first test), or the rear armour to be used mostly (second test).

If Sinthe's intuition is correct. Is there a chance we can determine how the exact value of the angle of impact affects which side of the armour is used?

Cruzz, is there a chance that there actually exists side armour in the game? (at least, statistically speaking)

Not sure what this entire conversation in the thread is supposed to be about. Yes your firing angle will determine whether on average you will be hitting rear or front armor.

As far as I understand things, physics based projectiles work like this:

If you do not succeed on the accuracy roll, you will fire with the midpoint of the enemy unit as your target, and will scatter based on weapon stats. Will collide with any kind of obstacles in the way. I assume scatter heightwise is added randomly as none of the weapon stats seem to have an effect on it.

If you do succeed on an accuracy roll, your unit will again align a shot with the midpoint of the enemy...but then the shot will be deviated from the centerpoint for a slight random amount. A 0 scatter weapon with 100% accuracy fired from a 90 degree angle will still constantly scatter around the midpoint of the enemy unit. The shot will attempt to home onto this target point while ignoring most "minor" collisions (won't go through houses but will go through fences, etc).

Because you're targeting the centerpoint of the enemy unit, firing angle will obviously have a huge effect, here's an amazing artist rendition assuming the random scattering is up to a 15 degree angle*


*which it isn't, as even firing at max range at 90 degrees you will never hit the very front or back of the targeted unit. It's probably capped to some percentage of the unit's size.

The idea is that, given the firing angle, we can say that the concept of side armour (i.e., effective armour value that is neither equal to frontal armour nor equal to rear armour, but somewhere inbetween) actually exists in the game.

I can probably compute the rest. However, I need to know:
- Is the midpoint always located right-in-the middle of the tank hitbox, for all tanks?
- Where can I get the numbers for this random scatter deviation?

- Is the midpoint always located right-in-the middle of the tank hitbox, for all tanks?

My assumption on how these works is that: You have a graphical model for a unit. First you take the center of that. Then you apply the simbox offset, and that's your hitbox centerpoint. Then the scale is used to make a hitbox around that centerpoint.

But as simbox values haven't been moddable in this game since I started looking at the stats, this might all be completely wrong. You'd have to ask someone who did COH1 or DOW2 modding for more specific answers.

- Where can I get the numbers for this random scatter deviation?

Ask Relic? Though I doubt they'll answer. I think the values are contained purely in the actual game engine code for firing off a projectile, nothing in the attribarchive makes much sense for it (except scatter, but I already tested that zeroing scatter makes no difference, nor did I notice any real difference between the couple different units I checked).

I assume scatter heightwise is added randomly as none of the weapon stats seem to have an effect on it.

I don't believe there is any height scatter, just distance scatter. That's why you never see shells fly over a vehicle, only fall short or hit.

I don't believe there is any height scatter, just distance scatter. That's why you never see shells fly over a vehicle, only fall short or hit.

If you start a game on south Semois (just chosen for the mostly flat area), spawn a unit and command it to attack ground like 30 meters in front of one of the stone walls, rounds will occasionally hit the stone wall even though it's clearly outside of the scatter area. Either the physics system is bugging out, or there's some minor height variation added to rounds for cinematic effect or whatever. Either way it clearly happens, most of the lucky shot from across the map videos prove that as well.

...The idea is that, given the firing angle, we can say that the concept of side armour (i.e., effective armour value that is neither equal to frontal armour nor equal to rear armour, but somewhere inbetween) actually exists in the game.
...

Angle of attack and side armor are 2 different concepts since side armor is constant and angle of attack is a variable...

IF you are interested in side armor you should probably try to contact AgameAnx. I am under the impression that he has created side armor in his mod...He proably know allot more on the subject anyway.

Cruzz, what is the time needed for relic to disable the usf cavalry commander while they fix the bug ?