Cruzz's The More You Know

Their damage per burst is the same (except on the churchill...), but there are big differences in how long their bursts are and how big the delay between them is. To add to the confusion, the churchill croc also features two flamers with the exact same orientation so you only really see one effect.

Overall DPS for the vehicle flamers is more or less:

Churchill Croc > Flammenwerfer (both guns) > KV8 (***) > Flammenwerfer (one gun) = WASP = Hetzer

Crocodile only has a movement penalty on the weaker flamer that you are directly giving attack orders to, and flammenwerfer has no movement penalties either. The other vehicle flamers have 50% accuracy on the move, reducing damage against the model being attacked though otherwise probably not affecting performance.

***KV8 has a higher radius on DOT damage and more DOTS placed, so on a stationary target it might be as good as a croc (Ignoring the main gun).

Their damage per burst is the same, but there are big differences in how long their bursts are and how big the delay between them is. To add to the confusion, the churchill croc also features two flamers, but with only one visible effect.

Overall DPS for the vehicle flamers is more or less:

Churchill Croc > Flammenwerfer (both guns) > KV8 (***) > Flammenwerfer (one gun) > WASP = Hetzer

Crocodile only has a movement penalty on its much weaker invisible targeting flamer, and flammenwerfer has no movement penalties. The others have 50% accuracy on the move, reducing damage against the model being attacked though otherwise probably not affecting performance.

***KV8 has a higher radius on DOT damage and more DOTS placed, so on a stationary target it might be as good as a croc (Ignoring the main gun).

Wow thanks for this clarification, many more variables changed than I at first realized. Dat Croc code.

Thank you all. I shall use this unit well until it is nerfed.

not really. they still keep their recieved accuracy modifiers.

Yes it does. They lose their bonus accuracy which would help their dps scale as other squads gain received accuracy bonuses (Which do stick) through vet. The sad fact is that as the game progresses cons will be doing LESS dps overall while also not having a weapon upgrade to crutch on.

Yikes.

Also explains part of the reason that Penals are so garbage. Losing out on 60% bonus accuracy... That seems like a lot.

Also explains part of the reason that Penals are so garbage. Losing out on 60% bonus accuracy... That seems like a lot.

Always thought it was weird too, because they definitely tied for highest bonus accuracy from vet in the game. Might also be why Sturmpioneers are so terrible for combat later too.

Always thought it was weird too, because they definitely tied for highest bonus accuracy from vet in the game. Might also be why Sturmpioneers are so terrible for combat later too.

They need a much better weapon profile and/or AT nades to be good though, probably even after they get their vet accuracy back. They have like half the dps of a volk squad at max range.

Bigger issue in my opinion is that going penals leaves no light counter to a luchs, 251 or 222. But that's a topic for another time.

Here's to hoping this is miraculously fixed in today's patch.

Yes it does. They lose their bonus accuracy which would help their dps scale as other squads gain received accuracy bonuses (Which do stick) through vet. The sad fact is that as the game progresses cons will be doing LESS dps overall while also not having a weapon upgrade to crutch on.

Yikes.

Also explains part of the reason that Penals are so garbage. Losing out on 60% bonus accuracy... That seems like a lot.

Actually since no ostheer units(29% on pgrens) and only a select few vet 5 okw elite infantry (strums obers jaegers ~50%) have better RA bonuses than cons, vet 3 cons are actually overperforming right now in the sense they can absorb way too many hits since no one has acc bonuses and only weapon upgrades to help them scale. Units are doing scaled down dps, and once it's fixed everyone will get scaled up pretty evenly since most ostheer and okw units have a 40% acc bonuses like cons (some get cool down bonuses too). The patch will be a nerf for the most part for brits and usf though since they have nothing close to the 40% acc bonuses that the other 3 factions do.

The rate of killing will go up quite significantly once this is patched and losing squads will be even more punishing since vet 0 squads will actually have very little chance against squads with RA bonuses and a 40% acc bonus on top of that.

The patch will be a nerf to Brits? The faction who is missing ALL offensive and defensive vet bonuses on their primary infantry unit? And their engineer unit? And who's anvil upgrade is lost?

That's some good logic though.

At least Brits and USF have double LMG squads to crutch on. Cons can't do the same thing.

Unless I am mistaken for Ost the following units get received accuracy through vet:
Grens, mechanized lmg grens, PGrens, ostruppen, storm troopers, and the artillery officer (lol who uses this unit?) meaning Cons are underperforming against all of these units plus lack a relevant weapon upgrade.

The following OKW units gain received accuracy through vet:
Sturms, Volks, Obers, Jli, falls, ISG, Mg34, Fusiliers.

Looking at the math: Gren increased accuracy is enough to effectively negate con received accuracy through vet while Con increased outgoing accuracy MORE than compensates for the bonus received accuracy grens receive through vet. This means that as the game progresses with both squads at vet 3 cons should be doing MORE damage than when both squads are at vet 0 but right now it's less. Grens should do roughly the same to Cons when both are vet 3 as when both are vet0; their primary damage increase should come from the lmg.

But again it is a matter of lacking a weapon upgrade to crutch on. Sadly LMGs are going to be even more disgustingly overpowered after the patch.

Hope this post made sense

Basically what I was getting at is this:

With the exception of only a few squads, and I think all these squads are OKW squads - the offensive accuracy that cons gain through vet is MORE than the RA that axis units gain through vet. So as the game progresses Cons should be doing increased dps (assuming equal levels of vet) while Axis squads should be doing the same dps since their OA bonuses only serve to nullify 1 for 1 the RA that cons gain.

Again this is a vast generalization and mostly applicable to the Ost / Sov match up but the point stands. OKW vet is all wonky and stuff. Plus OKW sucks against Soviets anyways.

Overall it means, in general, Cons are underperforming when compared to the intended behavior behind the current vet bonuses while also lacking viable weapon upgrade to crutch on.

Note on the 26/27th hotfix:

Veterancy is broken again, that much I'm sure people understand. But you should know that we're actually worse off than from where we started, because Relic changed all the existing "apply_to_squad" veterancy that was working (received accuracy and sight bonuses, mostly) to "apply_to_entity", and this wasn't reverted, so now that they reverted the "apply_to_entity" code due to all the issues (rear echelon blobs etc), they won't work either.

Only remaining infantry veterancy is ability changes and conditional (heal outside combat, sprint outside combat etc) buffs.

Note on the 26/27th hotfix:

Veterancy is broken again, that much I'm sure people understand. But you should know that we're actually worse off than from where we started, because Relic changed all the existing "apply_to_squad" veterancy that was working (received accuracy and sight bonuses, mostly) to "apply_to_entity", and this wasn't reverted, so now that they reverted the "apply_to_entity" code due to all the issues (rear echelon blobs etc), they won't work either.

Only remaining infantry veterancy is ability changes and conditional (heal outside combat, sprint outside combat etc) buffs.

Are we fucking serious right now?! OMG, enough of this bullshit. You're saying that now cons get nothing at vet 3 except Trip mine flares? No recieved accuracy buff,no nothing.I'm just shocked right now.

Note on the 26/27th hotfix:

Veterancy is broken again, that much I'm sure people understand. But you should know that we're actually worse off than from where we started, because Relic changed all the existing "apply_to_squad" veterancy that was working (received accuracy and sight bonuses, mostly) to "apply_to_entity", and this wasn't reverted, so now that they reverted the "apply_to_entity" code due to all the issues (rear echelon blobs etc), they won't work either.

Only remaining infantry veterancy is ability changes and conditional (heal outside combat, sprint outside combat etc) buffs.

jeeeeeez, are they gonna hotfix their hotfix ffs...

Was it just me that thought the game was much more playable straight after the patch ( and despite some amusing 5x minesweepers etc)?

Seems awful now.

Oooh, this is gonna be one entertaining ESL cup. Relic don't work on Saturdays, do they?

I don't even....
LELIK!

Vet stars are now cosmetic Kappa.

At least it's more equal now!

I foresee the following:
- LMG pr0struppen dominance
- Volksgrenadiers master-race
- Pintle-mounted MGs more relevant than ever
- Complete annihilation of USF late-game

Vetbug:

According to the latest Hotfix:
"Reduced the medium and far AOE profile on the land mattress main barrage slightly"

However, did they really nerf the AoE damage on the Land Mattress at all? I can't identify any relevant changes to land_mattress_60lb_rocket_mp (the AoE profile was and still is 1/0.4/0.25)

According to the latest Hotfix:
"Reduced the medium and far AOE profile on the land mattress main barrage slightly"

However, did they really nerf the AoE damage on the Land Mattress at all? I can't identify any relevant changes to land_mattress_60lb_rocket_mp (the AoE profile was and still is 1/0.4/0.25)

Yes they changed them to 1/0.35/0.15 and added a 0.75 multiplier to damage against production_building

I guess you're using the tools, they didn't update the xml files for them so they don't show the change.

Now all the vet is even, how is that worse off? Kappa

No player should play ESL tomorrow. Relic is the less serious game company ever.

Heh, but according to them it's a l2p issue.