Cruzz's The More You Know

Lol why IS-2 have so little numbers, why nade have 25 . 122 mm gun are weak for relic
Whant to say thay can try go inside tiger when is-2 will be shooting, maybe thay learn somthing about deflection .

Because IS-2 was supposed to have lower reload, but superior penetration compared to Tiger.

That was before:

-Tiger gun penetration buff
-Tiger gun range increase buff

Not like deflection chance matters now anyway, but IS-2 gun is just underwhelming in pretty much every aspect to Tigers one.

VI and VI B should not be crew shocking; they're already super powerful without stunning tanks.

I recently came across this bug: https://www.coh2.org/topic/49433/pyrotechnics-supplies-vision-bug
(Tommy vision upgrade only applies to original members; Forward Observer Riflemen all over again!)

I was looking at this video from Miragefla again:


And this got me thinking. Does offensive Veterancy (e.g., accuracy) apply correctly?
- Does it stick to the entire squad, and apply to new members/weapons?
- Or does it only apply to the weapons that the squad has at that moment?

Sadly, I can't answer that question for myself, because I don't understand the hardpoint mechanic.

Thus, I'll have to walk you through a quite long example. However, the answers I am looking for are yes-or-no answers.

For this example, I am going to use Rangers with a tweaked veterancy and a tweaked thompson package (they receive 1 thompson instead of 4)

For this example, let's assume that Rangers receive the following veterancy:
vet1: +20% sight range (implemented in the same way as the Pathfinders)
vet2: +20% cooldown, accuracy & reload
vet3: -20% received accuracy

1) Initially:
Let's assume that that we have a 5-man vet0 Ranger squad that has:
- Upgraded their Tweaked Thompson package (1 thompson)
- 1 bar
- 1 lmg42

(thus 2 rangers are carrying their default m1a1 carbine)

2) The squad loses a squad member to death (a m1a1 carbine-totting guy)

3) Then, the squad goes all the way up to vet3 without reinforcing

(everybody alive must have received their full veterancy bonuses by now)

Q1: Does the offensive veterancy upgrade the DPS of all weapons?
- m1a1
- thompson
- bar
- lmg42

4) The squad reinforces back to full

Q2: Does the new guy get the improved sight range?
Q3: Does the carbine of the new guy deal the same (upgraded) DPS as the other guys?

5) The squad now picks up 1 bazooka

(thus, we have 1 thompson, 1 bar, 1 bazooka, 1 lmg42 and 1 carbine)

Q4: Does the bazooka receive the DPS veterancy bonus?

6) Now, the squad mans an abandoned mg42. There are 2 men left in the original squad; 1 with bar and the other with lmg42.

Q5: What weapon is the mg42 crew carrying? Is it always the carbine m1a1?

(assuming that there are 3 carbines on the MG crew)

Q6: Do all 3 carbines benefit from the offensive veterancy bonus? (even though we only had fewer carbines present when the squad attained their veterancy)

7) We reinforce the mg42 crew back to full

Q7: Does the new guy receive the improved sight range?
Q8: Does the weapon of the new guy benefit from the offensive Veterancy?

8) The original squad gets wiped and drop both the bar and the lmg42

9) A vet0 ranger squad picks up the bar
Q9: What is the DPS of the bar? Is it a vet0 bar or a vet2 ranger bar?

10) A vet3 ranger squad picks up the lmg42
Q10: Again, what is the DPS of the lmg42? Is it a vet0, vet2 or 2*Vet2 lmg42?

11) The vet3 ranger squad upgrades their Thompson
Q11: Does the newly-upgraded Thompson benefit from the vet2 bonus?

Thanks!

This thread is amazing. Feels like the only one where people don't jump on eachother and kill one another but actually talk about the game.

Thank you Cruzz!

[...]

Very interesting questions!

Concerning different types of weapons: An entity's stock weapons are stored in its hardpoints. For Rangers, that would be the M1A1 Carbine in hardpoint 1. This is the weapon every ranger entity will use, whether it is part of a Ranger squad or a weapon team (after recrewing). That is unless the squad has one or more slot items, like the Thompson, BAR, MG42 or Bazooka. These also usually go into hardpoint 1, replacing the stock weapon. If your Ranger squad picks up a BAR, one of the entities will use it instead of the Carbine, but the slot item is still "owned" by the squad and will not be carried over when recrewing a team weapon. (Although there is or at least was a bug with Conscript PPShs carrying over, I believe.)

Veterancy modifiers are a bit tricky. Every modifier has an application type (weapon, entity, squad, ability, ...) and is either permanent or not. Modifiers for accuracy, cooldown and such can also be applied to a specific hardpoint.

If we take a look at the Ranger squad's accuracy modifier at Vet 2, we have (roughly) this:

apply_modifiers_action
-permanent: True
-accuracy_weapon_modifier
--application_type: apply_to_squad
--exclusive: False
--target_type_name: hardpoint_01
--usage_type: multiplication
--value: 1.2

That would mean: All of the squad's weapons in hardpoint 1 will have their accuracy multiplied by 1,2 - that includes the Carbine, Thompson, BAR, MG42 and Bazooka, because all of them go into hardpoint 1. This modifier is permanent (so it should be applied to newly reinforced squad members, I believe) and not exclusive (so it will stack with others).

I think the problem with the Tommy Pyrotechnics Supplies is the fact that its sight range modifier applies to the entities and has permanent: False. Not completely sure, though!

All of this is based on my experiences while working with the Attribute Editor, I didn't test it ingame. And obviously, I don't know how exactly Relic intended these things to work, and if everything is implemented correctly.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong!

I recently came across this bug: https://www.coh2.org/topic/49433/pyrotechnics-supplies-vision-bug
(Tommy vision upgrade only applies to original members; Forward Observer Riflemen all over again!)

Heh. Yeah, you're right. The good news is that there aren't that many effects being applied in a similar fashion, but they do exist. To name the ones that I can think of:

Anvil Heavy Sapper +1 armor && construction rate (repair speed increase will stay)
STG Obersoldaten +25 camo detection radius

And this got me thinking. Does offensive Veterancy (e.g., accuracy) apply correctly?
- Does it stick to the entire squad, and apply to new members/weapons?
- Or does it only apply to the weapons that the squad has at that moment?

So your questions made me actually test things a bit. Funny story...

INFANTRY (NOT INCLUDING TEAM WEAPONS*) WEAPON VETERANCY WILL NOT WORK ON REINFORCED MEMBERS, ONLY ON THE MEMBERS PRESENT WHEN YOU HIT A VETERANCY LEVEL

All those accuracy, cooldown, etc bonuses only apply to the squad members who are alive when you hit a new level of veterancy. Their bonuses will apply to any weapon they use (even if they pick it up after vetting up), but the bonuses will not transfer to a newly reinforced model, even with a slot item type weapon.

As such, for non team weapons, veterancy provides ability changes and received accuracy, but any DPS changes will be gone as soon as every one of the original members of the squad are dead.

How long has this been true? Atleast since October, which was when Relic was last messing around with the veterancy system (trying to remove stuff stacking on abandon etc). But it could very well have been in place for a lot longer.

Why haven't people noticed? The effect is kinda delayed with weapon upgrades because slot items will always be moved to the next oldest member of the squad, so if you're only losing 1 or two models before retreating you will lose DPS very gradually because slot item weapons make up such a large portion of your DPS in this game. And people have certainly noticed how conscripts, the guys with no slot weapons (well, apart from ppsh) scale nowhere later on, as their DPS ends up being the exact same as on minute 1 eventually.

A simple way to check yourself because you won't believe anyway is to get a vet3 pathfinder squad. These guys have +5 range at vet3. Get a guy or two killed from the squad, reinforce, and watch in awe as the reinforced members of the squad wont have the extra range anymore. Or try vet4 obers with all original members killed, never suppression. ETC.

*As for team weapons, the team weapon itself is always alive so veterancy is applied to it just fine. This still means that the groupies in the team weapon are not gaining veterancy bonuses after dying once, but their DPS is generally not an issue anyway.

As a side note there's a couple of squads which have their received accuracy modifiers as apply_to_entity and thus those won't work on reinforced members of the squad either.

Tommies
Sappers (construction rate & received accuracy)
Lieutenant
Captain
Major


In short, Relic pls

This is crazy! Relic! Fix this veterancy bug!

Oh dreary me. Does Relic know about this/is it easy to fix without breaking stacking?

Are you planning on making a bug report thread on the bugs section, or shall I do the honours?

Holy Lelic!

So basically all offensive veterancy is complety void after about 2 or 3 reinforcements? Jeez.

What about defensive buffs?

So that explains why conscripts get rekt so easily late game. IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW.

So that explains why conscripts get rekt so easily late game. IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW.

Exactly, it all makes sense now. Hot fix plz!

So... what i don't understand is why didn't anyone including myself never noticed this? Interesting though needs immediate hotfix.

What about defensive buffs?

Unless it was misplaced like the units Cruzz listed, no. Defensive and sight boosts are part of the squad. They are not linked to the weapon which is the issue here.

So... what i don't understand is why didn't anyone including myself never noticed this? Interesting though needs immediate hotfix.

I ask the same.
But its looks like realistic bug, that waht we whant from game .

I ask the same.
But its looks like realistic bug, that waht we whant from game .

yup. Why would clumsy new guys to a veteran squad shoot as good as the veterans already there?

Im glad relic is working towards a more realistic game.

yup. Why would clumsy new guys to a veteran squad shoot as good as the veterans already there?

Im glad relic is working towards a more realistic game.

My sarcasm meter needs tweaking, but I hope that you are kidding.

yup. Why would clumsy new guys to a veteran squad shoot as good as the veterans already there?

Im glad relic is working towards a more realistic game.

Thanks Relic, I agree it should be this way lmao