Stug G vs. Soviet and Allied armor

Doesn't the stuarts stun still allow them to move though? I thought it only stopped them from firing and blocked sight?

If it bounces, it blocks sight. If it pens, it crew shocks but for a shorter duration than stun normally lasts.

Doesn't the stuarts stun still allow them to move though? I thought it only stopped them from firing and blocked sight?

Penetrating shot stuns completely, non penetrating just blinds.

The state of balance is terrible. IS2 is gone from the game and T34 is a joke.

Pussyking the lolcake of allies.

The state of balance is terrible. IS2 is gone from the game and T34 is a joke.

No more call in meta for you to roll over axis? No more OP-armor tanks that bounce off everything for you? Poor boy.

They were untouched.
SU76 and M5 was buffed.

How is it a joke?

because it was two years in a "right spot" and now it is OP
People need something to bitching about

It was "fine", when the Stug had low penetration and low health. Cause it was the only reason the unit was viable.
TWP on the pak was "fine" cause it targeted ground, not the tank itself, so it was harder to land.

While several other units needs a veterancy abilityies overhaul, if it was on me:
-Stug: crewshocks the tanks making them unable to fireback but able to move away.
-Pak40: as it is now.
-TA: remove double pen, and replace it with Aimed shot. AND please fix it so it shares cooldown with the main gun.

TWP was bugged and barely functional for ages. Now the Stug is in the best spot it's ever been, and TWP works as designed. This + heavy call in limit is why people are now complaining about TWP, it shows up in most team games featuring OH now and it's frustrating as heck.

Pussyking the lolcake of allies.

Acelolcake.

I miss them.

The state of balance is terrible. IS2 is gone from the game and T34 is a joke.

for me its good tell that player is a noob if he thinks that t34 is bad. T34 is one of the best units in whole game 100%.
It is good vs all infantry. In close game 2 t34/76 can realisticaly fight panter.
Basicaly everithing exept Ace, KT, or panter+jagpanz mix which they cannot get ussualy. If they do then 2 AT guns before that.

No, i am not saying that the stug is not meant to kill tanks. You don't need to disable a tank to keep it at long range. Turretless TDs have done quite well without TWP up to now. The SU85, JP4, and current SU76 all do their job somehow without access to TWP. Closing in is the counter to TDs, but the stug is not only the cheapest td, but it is also the only TD that can stun a charging tank and retreat, even when caught out of position.

Thge JP4, SU-85 are better in every way. Each one has its ability. Half map view for SU-85, requiring no veterancy and being free to use. Plus tracking. JP4 scales verry well like any other OKW unit, and it is enough powerfull not to benefit from any "ability" provided by veterancy. Still, it has one: cautious movement. Don't even try to simplify things to "oh, the Su-85 and JP4 have no TWP and they are doing just fine". It'sno comparison between stug and these 2. WTF Stug cannot spot for itself.

Also, how are you comparing a 50 range, 80 dmg, 400 hp unit to the stugg? I've already showed you how stuart stun rounds deal less damage, have less of an impact, and have clear counterplay. A single grensquad on the stugs flank can snare the stuart. A rifle squad cannot snare a stug, and the stug can do its ability from out of the fog of war.

Each unit, the Stug and the Stuart, are operating at their level. Stuart can use its ability and kill a Puma. Stug can use its ability and kill a T34/85. Both having the same chance to kill the enemy unit from examples, an enemy unit which is STRONGER then they are. Meanwhile please consider what is the Ostheer tech tree like and what costs it implies.

You are still attempting to derail/ redirect the conversation in the wrong direction. I will ask you again:

Why is TWP is required ability, and if it is, how is it currently balanced?

How am I trying to derail when I am showing you that a similar ability exists on other allied unit and that every tank destroyer has its specific ability. Derailing does not mean seeing the whole picture, as you 80% of people here on forums are not. You are deliberately narrowing your vision - like SU-85 does - pointing in on one unit, not considering why a specific feature exists in the whole meta context. You cannot analyze one unit / ability extracting it from context. One could say: "it's not enough that shock trops squad has 6 people, armor and grenades? Why in the world do they need a smoke grenade too? Isn't that OP?" How this would sound? A little stupid? Maybe. So it's this TWP whining.

Thge JP4, SU-85 are better in every way. Each one has its ability. Half map view for SU-85, requiring no veterancy and being free to use. Plus tracking. JP4 scales verry well like any other OKW unit, and it is enough powerfull not to benefit from any "ability" provided by veterancy. Still, it has one: cautious movement. Don't even try to simplify things to "oh, the Su-85 and JP4 have no TWP and they are doing just fine". It'sno comparison between stug and these 2. WTF Stug cannot spot for itself.

They should be better in every way, the stug only costs 90 fu. But here is the thing, the Stug is the only unit of them that has the ability to not only force stop a tank of any armor level (up to an IS2), but it is also the only tank that can then use this ability to save itself if it is about to be swarmed.

You focused on the SU85 ability, so I will ask you this. If an SU85 with focus vehicle shoots you, what happens? Nothing. You take damage, then you can choose to continue the attack or to retreat and come from another direction. If a pak/stug/ele hits you with TWP, what happens? You have no option but to take your punishment, then retreat if you can afterwards. On top of this, the SU85 ability slows the tank, and gives it 0 periferal vision, meaning that the SU85 REQUIRES supporting armor to use its ability. The stug, on the other hand, can use TWP for a nominal cost, then use the stun to take an extra shot, retreat, or just let supporting AT murder said snared tank with no response from the allied vehicle.

Even worse, the Elephant has TWP AND focus sight, so it can literally one-shot mediums from the fog of war.

Each unit, the Stug and the Stuart, are operating at their level. Stuart can use its ability and kill a Puma. Stug can use its ability and kill a T34/85. Both having the same chance to kill the enemy unit from examples, an enemy unit which is STRONGER then they are. Meanwhile please consider what is the Ostheer tech tree like and what costs it implies.

The Stug costs 90 fu, the T34/85 costs 140. The Stuart costs 70 fu, as does the Puma. On top of this, I have already shown you why the Stuart ability actually has counterplay and does less damage to the unit it is shooting at, but I will do it again incase you didn't see it.

3 Stuart stuns shots = 120 dmg (they do half damage apparently), 30% HP on a unit that is of the same tier as it, same cost, but also better in every other way. In this case, the ability is giving the Stuart a chance to defeat the puma, where in a straight 1v1 the puma has the advantage of range, mobility, sight, and damage. The ability is not OP because the Stuart and the puma are worth the same resource wise, and the Stuart ability can be dodged with smoke, scouting, and kiting. The Stuart ability also deals less damage than regular Stuart rouds, which means that you lose damage to pull off the stun. Finally, Stuart stun lasts for a shorter amount of time per shot than TWP stun.

2 Stug-g rounds = 320 dmg, which is 50% of the damage that any medium (besides T34/85 and Panther) can take. On top of this, the Stug has the advantages of ROF, Pen (stock mediums have less pen than the stug has armor), and range. The Mediums have mobility, and a turret. Without TWP, the Stug would be reliant on supporting units to keep the medium away, as all TDs do. However, with TWP, the stug can make it impossible at the very least for a medium to attack, since the Stug can single handedly halve its health, and by backing up to max range, get a third shot off as the medium starts to move again, forcing it away. The Stug is not using its ablity to even a matchup that it is disadvantaged in terms of cost in. The Stug is using its ability to protect itself from any assault attempt, and to single handedly shut down an enemy advance (allied infantry is far more dependent on supporting armor than axis infantry is lategame). The ability also allows it to "snare" armor of any strength, in a way far more powerful than any pzfaust/at grenade, with 0 risk.

If TWP as an ability still allowed a unit to retreat in some way, it would be fine. If TWP forced the Stug to close into a range it was disadvantaged in, it would make sense. If the Stug dealt 0 damage with TWP, it may be forgiven. In short if there was any risk, any minuses, any counterplay to TWP AT ALL, it may be excused, but there isn't.

Old Button snared a tank for about as long as TWP, but required the guards to be close to said tank, and for the guards to not move. On top of this, button could be broken by driving out of range, using smoke, or just shooting at the guards with another unit. Guards were also incapable of dealing significant damage to the tank in question by themselves, they needed supporting AT to kill anything bigger than an HT. I remember you arguing about how button was OP, so why wouldn't TWP also be considered OP?

How am I trying to derail when I am showing you that a similar ability exists on other allied unit and that every tank destroyer has its specific ability. Derailing does not mean seeing the whole picture, as you 80% of people here on forums are not. You are deliberately narrowing your vision - like SU-85 does - pointing in on one unit, not considering why a specific feature exists in the whole meta context. You cannot analyze one unit / ability extracting it from context. One could say: "it's not enough that shock trops squad has 6 people, armor and grenades? Why in the world do they need a smoke grenade too? Isn't that OP?" How this would sound? A little stupid? Maybe. So it's this TWP whining.

I have shown you the whole picture. TWP is available on every Ostheer AT weapon. TWP allows said weapons to deal extra damage with no counterplay. On top of this, TWP is used on vehicles with much less HP pools than any allied ability of similar make is used. TWP has 0 counterplay, and requires 0 risk to use. If that isn't looking at the whole picture, I don't know what is.

You, if anyone, have been focusing on details and ignoring the whole when you focus on the stuart stun rounds and SU85 ability. Also, I have no idea what you are talking about in terms of smoke. Smoke doesn't stun enemy infantry so that the shocks can just walk in and kill them with no return fire. Smoke also doesn't have range beyond the fog of war.

I'm starting to think that you are defending this ability solely because it is an Axis one. You don't seem to have any real arguments, other than trying to claim that other abilities are just as OP, which is not an argument at all, just an excuse. You should come up with something that actually makes sense, because I don't think I'm the only one thinking this.

Stug having TWP defeats the purpose of combined arms.

3 Stuart stuns shots = 240 dmg

Actually, Stuart stun shot reduces the damage Stuart does by 50%, so 3 PENETRATING stun shots=120dmg.

Actually, Stuart stun shot reduces the damage Stuart does by 50%, so 3 PENETRATING stun shots=120dmg.

Hmm, really? Thanks, didn't know that. (Edited)

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Godamit man, I just lost my super fantastic reply to your post , it was to much and don't have time to type it again.
Anyway, I appreciate that we can have a discution without failing into personal attacks that this forum is filled with. And no, I am not defending it because it's an Axis ability, but because it is counterable in the same way SU-85 or other TDs abilities are counterable so I see no big difference between them. If a SU-85 shots at my tank from FOW using focused vision, I can reply with a PAK next to my tank. If a Stug shots from afar using TWP, I can reply with a Zis next to my T34. And Zis will hurt the Stug at least as much Pak will hurt the SU-85..... anyway, I regret I lost my reply .

Still don't see Stug G as often as I see t34-85s or a Panzer 4

Still don't see Stug G as often as I see t34-85s or a Panzer 4

Because at the time you can build your first StuG/Panzer IV, you are most likely facing infantry and AT guns rather than tanks.

The Panzer IV is better at crushing, has two more MGs and a turret. Considering the AI of the StuG is going to be nerfed soon (near accuracy value wrong), the first tank should always be a Panzer IV, unless you have been outplayed and need AT options.

The StuG is a good option to not get caught with your pants down later though.

Godamit man, I just lost my super fantastic reply to your post , it was to much and don't have time to type it again.
Anyway, I appreciate that we can have a discution without failing into personal attacks that this forum is filled with. And no, I am not defending it because it's an Axis ability, but because it is counterable in the same way SU-85 or other TDs abilities are counterable so I see no big difference between them. If a SU-85 shots at my tank from FOW using focused vision, I can reply with a PAK next to my tank. If a Stug shots from afar using TWP, I can reply with a Zis next to my T34. And Zis will hurt the Stug at least as much Pak will hurt the SU-85..... anyway, I regret I lost my reply .

It has nothing to do with the Stug, TWP in general is broken. If a Pak shoots a TWP at you, you have to sit there and eat the damage. Shooting at the unit that TWPed you isn't counter play either. If there was a Stug + Pak, then the Pak gets free damage on you anyways (and can chain TWP) while the Stug retreats, a luxury the stunned vehicle doesn't get. Counter play is a way to dodge or negate the effects of an ability.

TWP is shot from the fog of war, has 100% pen and 100% accuracy, so it cannot be dodged. Tank smoke doesn't exist for allies, so it cannot be negated either. This is why its such a silly and over the top ability, especially when viewed as the counterpart to "tracking".

It has nothing to do with the Stug, TWP in general is broken. If a Pak shoots a TWP at you, you have to sit there and eat the damage. Shooting at the unit that TWPed you isn't counterplay either. Counterplay is a way to dodge or negate the effects of an ability. TWP is shot from the fog of war, has 100% pen and 100% accuracy, so it cannot be dodged. Tank smoke doesn't exist for allies, so it cannot be negated either. This is why its such a silly and over the top ability, especially when viewed as the counterpart to "tracking".

Well I'm sorry, but the way discution went I was sure that it was about TWP being OP on Stugs only. For packs I believe it's even worst, for they cannot defend themselves not even from what they are supposed to counter anymore, due to latest nerfs from 2 patches ago. But this I guess we can say about ZIs also, though ZIS is slightly more advantaged due to bigger crew.
Anyway, it's clear for me now that we cannot agree related to TWP and that's ok.

Well I'm sorry, but the way discution went I was sure that it was about TWP being OP on Stugs only. For packs I believe it's even worst, for they cannot defend themselves not even from what they are supposed to counter anymore, due to latest nerfs from 2 patches ago. But this I guess we can say about ZIs also, though ZIS is slightly more advantaged due to bigger crew.

Anyway, it's clear for me now that we cannot agree related to TWP and that's ok.

Paks can't kill tanks? Wut?

I'm not even sure what you are saying.