No tech demo just poor design.

The only people scared of demo's for Axis are the usual crowd AKA TAB, Katitof, ect.

they would be cool with this if relic gives Soviets a weapon package for the scripts

This sentence doesn't make any sense. USF has a fraction of the munition sinks Ostheer and OKW do and you yourself said we see few demo's from them.

What? No. USF has weapon upgrades like Ostheer and OKW but up to two, static MG upgrade like Ostheer, pintle guns like Ostheer on their medium (though less overall on their tanks) which cost 10 more, and some units that are walking munition bleeds to function in addition to a bunch of smoke abilities (none of which are free).

REs: If you're using them in combat regularly, you're using suppressive volley 'cause it's not like it does damage.
M20: Armour skirts and if it lives long enough, it exists for placing AT mines because it dies in two AT hits while requiring close-range to do damage and losing it costs you these mines.
57mm: If it's at least a PIV, the 57mm needs to chug AP shells.
Stuart: Basically the only thing really good about it is has a bunch of abilities (which are a bit poor themselves but that's another story).
Major: If you're using him as something other than a retreat point, you're using his (mostly horrifically overpriced) call-in abilities.

Additionally, Rifles' vet basically requires munition spending to be useful, as they get less accuracy from vet 3 than other combat infantry while gaining a large decrease of their abilities' cooldowns.

they would be cool with this if relic gives Soviets a weapon package for the scripts

They have one, but non-doctrinally you mean of course. I would be fine with more upgrades been given to every faction but in the case of cons you need to be careful since they are the easier of the basic infantry to spam. You can't spam grens without getting bled to death, and Volks become just a pain in the ass to micro after the 4th one.

What? No. USF has weapon upgrades like Ostheer and OKW but up to two, static MG upgrade like Ostheer, pintle guns like Ostheer on their medium (though less overall on their tanks) which cost 10 more, and some units that are walking munition bleeds to function in addition to a bunch of smoke abilities (none of which are free).

REs: If you're using them in combat regularly, you're using suppressive volley 'cause it's not like it does damage.
M20: Armour skirts and if it lives long enough, it exists for placing AT mines.
57mm: If it's at least a PIV, the 57mm needs to chug AP shells.
Stuart: Basically the only thing really good about it is has a bunch of abilities (which are a bit poor themselves but that's another story).
Major: If you're using him as something other than a retreat point, you're using his (mostly horrifically overpriced) call-in abilities.

Additionally, Rifles' vet basically requires munition spending to be useful, as they get less accuracy from vet 3 than other combat infantry while gaining a large decrease of their abilities' cooldowns.

With Ostheer/OKW the munition sinks you have are basically 100% required. You have to get medics, you will have to make a large amount of use of grenades, you need to have shreks, you need to give your Obers LMG34's. Ostheer relies on munitions to effectively operate at all stages of of the game. The reason the fuel to muni conversion is so powerful is it takes away one of Ost's biggest limiters.

With Ostheer/OKW the munition sinks you have are basically 100% required. You have to get medics, you will have to make a large amount of use of grenades, you need to have shreks, you need to give your Obers LMG34's. Ostheer relies on munitions to effectively operate at all stages of of the game. The reason the fuel to muni conversion is so powerful is it takes away one of Ost's biggest limiters.

yes, but don't you think you are not really helping your cause with statements like this? Given your logic, OH/OKW might not use demos even if they are available

With Ostheer/OKW the munition sinks you have are basically 100% required. You have to get medics, you will have to make a large amount of use of grenades, you need to have shreks, you need to give your Obers LMG34's. Ostheer relies on munitions to effectively operate at all stages of of the game. The reason the fuel to muni conversion is so powerful is it takes away one of Ost's biggest limiters

You're basically telling me USF will win without throwing grenades, buying MGs, armour skirts, using smoke, buying mines, or buying the weapons that is literally a design point of the faction. Everyone spends munitions a ton outside of commander abilities aside from Soviets when they aren't using Guards. Some use it in a far more linear manner than the others, but they're going to use it because you kinda have to win the game.

And I just you about USF units that are gigantic munition sinks, right? And not from one upgrade, constantly to use them at all. Only the Major out of all of them have much of a purpose without spending.

Alex has got a point, many a time katitof you have posted arguing when axis was getting nerfs that they didn't need anything to help compensate. How is giving axis (the more munition starved factions at that) access to demos so bad? Nobody is really getting nerfed in this hypothetical situation, so why all of a sudden do we need to buff allies for axis getting demos?

Minesweepers being required to lay demos and given to every faction along with perhaps a 3 second timer upon detonation, and perhaps a cost decrease to 75 munitions IMO would be the best option. Or just be given to ostheer. Not okw, which imo you'd see the least from them due to their munition consumption+muni penalty.

If something is too strong, its getting a nerf to bring it in line with the other armies in the first place, so why anyone in his right mind would compensate for nerfs?

If you compensate for nerfing overpowered stuff, you create another overpowered stuff.

If you're giving away tools of X army to Y army without giving something from Y to X you CREATE another imbalance.

Imagine now USF getting ost sniper clone, because why not? USF doesn't have a sniper and they suffer greatly from fighting against one, so why shouldn't they have a sniper of their own to "balance" this out?

Does that sound fair? Because in my book, it doesn't sound fair at all and is a plain stupid. Just like alexes proposal.

[Katitof, please watch it with personal attacks.]

"attack argument instead of player" which is exactly what I did, so I literally have no idea what you're up to Pag.

yes, but don't you think you are not really helping your cause with statements like this? Given your logic, OH/OKW might not use demos even if they are available

The option would be open to them and they would need to sacrifice something in order to use them. Which is how it should be. I

You're basically telling me USF will win without throwing grenades, buying MGs, armour skirts, using smoke, buying mines, or buying the weapons that is literally a design point of the faction. Everyone spends munitions a ton outside of commander abilities aside from Soviets when they aren't using Guards. Some use it in a far more linear manner than the others, but they're going to use it because you kinda have to win the game.

And I just you about USF units that are gigantic munition sinks, right? And not from one upgrade, constantly to use them at all. Only the Major out of all of them have much of a purpose without spending.

Grens need the LMG to be able to stick around without getting their ass handed to them. Rifles can walk all over Axis starting infantry for a while before things like the BAR and 1919 become absolutely necessary. With USF the option is there, and they do use a LOT of munitions but the way upgrades are structure for Ost is that they have to use them to even play the game.

For OKW you need medic crates with a mechanized start, you need shreks, ect. These are options you can't skip over.

If something is too strong, its getting a nerf to bring it in line with the other armies in the first place, so why anyone in his right mind would compensate for nerfs?

If you compensate for nerfing overpowered stuff, you create another overpowered stuff.

If you're giving away tools of X army to Y army without giving something from Y to X you CREATE another imbalance.

Imagine now USF getting ost sniper clone, because why not? USF doesn't have a sniper and they suffer greatly from fighting against one, so why shouldn't they have a sniper of their own to "balance" this out?

Does that sound fair? Because in my book, it doesn't sound fair at all and is a plain stupid. Just like alexes proposal.

You have not, in anyway framed how the demo charge would make things unfair or to hard for Allies. You are making a false equivalency here. Yes USF having a sniper just like Ost's would be OP, good thing nobody is asking for USF to have the Ost sniper.

We are not talking about units, we are talking about a munition based ability. Allies have the ability to field far more sweepers than Axis can. If you think demo charges would be OP if they were given to Axis despite all evidence to the contrary, maybe that means demo charges for Allies are actually is what is OP.

"attack argument instead of player" which is exactly what I did, so I literally have no idea what you're up to Pag.

Normally I would have sent you a PM explaining, but I was on my iPhone and it was bugging out, anyways it's just you deliberately called out Alex.

[Does that sound fair? Because in my book, it doesn't sound fair at all and is a plain stupid. Just like alexes proposal.]

And while I'm not really going to do anything about it for now, as it is a topic that causes emotions to run high. This still needs to be a warning to all, try not to call out other people and put them and their ideas down as it does nothing to help constructive conversation and debate, and only will lead to flaming.

Umm, I've called out his argument, not him.
Its quite clear in the quote.

Demo on top of a mine = insta wipe of a vet3/5 axis squad with muni investment or even armor.

I get a dirty feeling of satisfaction each time I use it. Its a dumb, no brainer OP ability that just takes a dump on any decent player.

There is no justification for the current state of demos, period.

Demos need to be changed, this is a point I agree with. They are too cost effective, since soviets do not really have many other choices for their munitions. There have been many good ideas on how to balance them out.

However, this thread has brought up a very good point, soviets don't really have many munition sinks. This is why demos are such a big problem, since soviets can spam them out without really worrying about the cost. Soviets should have some kind of lategame munitions sink for conscripts, as they currently get outscaled far too hard. (please don't say utility, because conscript lategame utility is also worse than that of grenadiers, since grens have a better snare and a better nade). I do not want to see a brainless lmg upgrade for conscripts however. I find lmgs to be a cancer upon the infantry combat in this game. Thus, I would like to see one of two things:

1) A combat Veteran upgrade when T3/T4 is unlocked, giving conscripts "better equipment" per upgraded squad, basically getting rid of their received accuracy penalty, maybe giving them a slight bonus as well. This upgrade could also aid penals, but is probably not needed.

2) A PPS43 upgrade that gives the squad 2 PPS43s. The PPS43 upgrade should give cons better close and mid range firepower (assault rifle weapon profile), and should be stack-able with the doctrinal PPSH41 upgrade, so that players can make very close range focused squads late game if needed, and would also give the PPSH41 upgrade a more useful role, since it is currently not very useful.

Demos need to be changed, .

no they don't... buff OkW sweeper range

also, now that demos can be targeted, I don't see the issue. its as if Relic is telling players that have trouble with demos to L2P indirectly.

Lastly, if demos require tech, price needs to be lowered to 60 munitions

Axis don't need demos, more cheese will not make this game better, demos need to disappear in their current form.
No offence guys,
the only people who don't have trouble with demos are those who are not in the ELO range of decent Soviet players. Thats a nice, vetted inf squad you got there. Would be a shame if my brainless, 90 muni one-click ability...booom....oh snap, oh dear, how sad, never mind.

I don't get why a detected demo can explode while every other mine can't.
You cannot clear it with your pios unless your enemy is asleep.
Making it attackable seems for me that Relic was just like 'meh, we don't want to do something, so simply shoot at it'.

The idea with Engineers needed in range to detonate it sounds awesome.
Or simply make it usable on buildings/bridges only.

Atm it's a uber mine for a bit more ammunition for a faction that has plenty of ammunition that needs a click more.

Cons. DPs. Do it.

Teching for the demo is not going tochange the situation. It will simply delay it a bit, that's all. It will not stop it from wiping your squads.

I would be for maybe lowering the damage to non squadwipe-levels and adding surpression that automatically pins a unit so you'll have to retreat it. Change the cost accordingly.

Either give axis goliath and then we can do cheese vs cheese.

Or do the sensible thing,make demos only detonate when there is a friendly inf squad nearby to manually detonate it like in real life,not auto boom like mines.Then u have to use tactics to lure enemy into ur demo,not mindless autowipes.

Another option demos only useable on bridges,heavy cover and buildings .

Teching for the demo is not going tochange the situation. It will simply delay it a bit, that's all. It will not stop it from wiping your squads.

I would be for maybe lowering the damage to non squadwipe-levels and adding surpression that automatically pins a unit so you'll have to retreat it. Change the cost accordingly.

Why not add suppression to all mines, like in coh1 to reward flanking? Infantry reactions were removed a while ago