Original factions: too much locked behind commanders

----DISCLAIMER: This thread is not about the tank call-in meta being used over teching. That is a separate concern with different solutions than what I wish to address here. I do not want this thread devolving into nothing but discussion on tank call-ins, as there is a larger over-arching problem.-----------------

One of the biggest reasons I've disliked the commander system since release is because of how much they end up limiting factions' options instead of enhancing them. This is not as much an issue for the Western front factions (thought arguably still is somewhat) because Relic was wise enough not to design the factions around microtransactions, but for Wehrmacht and (especially) Soviets, the huge number of commanders means way too many options aren't available in practice, so a huge chunk of the armies' capabilities go unused. This is bad for players because it leaves the vanilla army capabilities feeling incomplete, and it's bad for Relic (now that they don't sell commanders) because it means a lot of the assets and features of the original armies they worked so hard on don't see use in strategic diversity, leading to a more stagnant meta.

The biggest problem stems from the sheer amount of commanders. I'm estimating there are, what, around fifteen to twenty different commanders for the old factions that are mostly just rehashed and reorganized abilities? This is especially problematic because you can only equip three at once, so the vast, vast majority go completely unused. Not only that, but there are clearly superior options out of the bulk of them, so that further narrows it down if you enjoy actually winning. This is especially unfortunate because some of the "useless" commanders have some genuinely interesting abilities. But you know the meta: if it doesn't have (for Soviets) guards or shock troops and a tank call-in, it's just not a competitive doctrine. For Wehrmacht, if it doesn't have a Tiger, you aren't quite as boned as not having Soviet tank call-ins, but you're still handicapping yourself (unless it's some other cheesy strat like CAS). And even if you do pick one of the trashy unused commanders, you're still locked out of all the other cool abilities that aren't in that particular doctrine.

Stuff that should be doctrinal include off-map artillery strikes and other utility abilities that enhance your playstyle, not dictate it. Stuff like For the Motherland, Mark Target, infantry sprinting, Opel Blitz, Ostruppen reserves, conscript reserves, vehicle tracking, and the like. What should not be locked behind a paywall- and thank God Relic shied away from this system, but even so, the old commander system hasn't been updated to reflect moving away from paid DLC- is basic functionality and basic strategic diversity.

You're seriously going to remove something as basic as tanks traps from Soviets and lock them behind one absolute trash doctrine? They might as well not even be in the game. Panzer Elite had halftrack mines by default, but let's rip away Ostheer halftrack utility by locking Riegel mines behind a rarely used commander. Hull down is an interesting Wehrmacht ability; too bad no one uses it because it's only in a select few doctrines that no one gets a chance to use because there are way better options. It's a situational ability, but it would be used a lot more if you didn't have to sacrifice a Tiger for it. Want to build cover as Wehrmacht late game when all the cover has been destroyed? Too bad, you don't get sandbags. Here, have some trenches you can't build unless you pick a doctrine that teaches you how to dig a hole. Want to use the KV-2? It's in one doctrine out of twenty, and that commander gimps your entire play. Howitzers (besides the B4)? Not only do they suck, but they're in bad doctrines just for double assurance no one uses them. Honestly, about 80% of the of the original factions' doctrines are rendered obsolete due to sheer superiority of certain choices, even though they contain useful abilities that should be part of the core strategy. I mean, for Christ's sake, there's got to be as many Soviet units in the all the combined commanders as there are in the default army roster. This is why the Soviet army feels so barebones without specific commanders.

I can sit here and complain all day, but I suppose that doesn't really help without offering solutions. So what could be done to alleviate this? As I've said, Relic seems to have learned their lesson with the new factions, so it's clear they agree that this system is inefficient and counter-productive. What I propose is, I know, not a simple task, but I firmly believe that it needs to be done for the long term health of the game. What needs to happen is a complete reorganization of the Soviet and Wehrmacht commanders. Each faction needs their ludicrous amount of commanders reduced to about six to eight, with each recycled ability tied to only one commander, and certain utilities (namely the ones I mentioned above) need to just be put in the default army roster. You can argue that the fact people paid for these commanders as reason to be content with a mess, but I don't think many people would complain at this point if the armies were just balanced around actual balance instead of money.

One last important issue: shocks and guards. They really need to be taken out of commanders and put into the base Soviet army as a tech choice, because they're so essential that if they stay locked behind commanders, the same thing will happen: everyone picks those doctrines (and/or the ones with the good tanks). What I would do is at either the main base building or the special rifle command, you are allowed to unlock either shocks or guards but not both. Alternatively, the special rifle command and support each have one of the two in them. However would work best, I suppose.

Thoughts?

TL;DR Commanders contain useful abilities but are never used due to there being too many commanders. Commanders should enhance your strategic diversity instead of acting as part of your core army. Too many basic capabilities of the old factions are locked behind a previously in-place paywall instead of being used as part of their fundamental strategy.

ITT: stating the obvious

ok

Agreeing with Sleep3r this is just preaching the choir we've all heard a thousand,and this also applies very much to WFA armies too

People always complain about the call-in meta for tanks. I rarely see anyone say anything about other abilities. There needs to be a well-articulated hub to discuss these other issues of commanders that everyone glosses over.

Besides, let's be honest here, most of this entire site is preaching to the choir. Isn't the whole point to discuss these in a well-structured manner in hopes of actual change?

callin meta for tank traps

KAY

This was a conscious design decision made to push commanders. Undoing it would require serious redesign work, which is extremely unlikely to happen. The blandness of CoH2 factions without commanders is its biggest design issue, and one that Relic hasn't seemed too keen on addressing, as doing so would undermine their entire business model.

This was a conscious design decision made to push commanders. Undoing it would require serious redesign work, which is extremely unlikely to happen. The blandness of CoH2 factions without commanders is its biggest design issue, and one that Relic hasn't seemed too keen on addressing, as doing so would undermine their entire business model.

source?

Common sense and the power of observation?

Also the fact that back in October 2013, after they had released their first batch of DLC commanders, they were planning on releasing 4 commanders per month.

Your skill is locked behind commanders?

Basically the plan is to make each commander OP for a certain time, to make everyone buy the flavour of the month OP strat.

The options of the original armies by comparison to the WFA are, frankly, quite hilariously bad. People talk about how redesigning the factions would take too much effort, and I might agree if adding the ability to build sectioned sandbags with conscripts/pioneers/grens probably isn't actually that hard to accomplish. The old factions are outclassed in terms of options by the WFA, especially if you count how much the commanders for the new factions add that are supplementary, and not essential.
It needs to be addressed, but fixing doesn't make money. Making DLC and expansions does.
But I'm not trying to hate on Relic. The old factions still work, but is it too much to ask for sectioned sandbags and tank traps? Leave the tank call-ins, fine, but I don't think anyone can put up a reasonable defense for why the Soviets can't build tank traps by default and why the Wehrmacht can't build any defenses other than bunkers.

This was a conscious design decision made to push commanders. Undoing it would require serious redesign work, which is extremely unlikely to happen. The blandness of CoH2 factions without commanders is its biggest design issue, and one that Relic hasn't seemed too keen on addressing, as doing so would undermine their entire business model.

Indeed, that's exactly my point- the thing is Relic doesn't sell commanders anymore, so basic functionality that's locked behind commanders needs to go. It doesn't even make sense on Relic's end since it doesn't make them money.

Look, I'm not calling for an entire faction redesign here. I'm just saying they need to condense the commanders and put some abilities in the stock armies, like freaking sandbags, tank, traps, mines, and a few units, etc. An amateur with the current basic mod tools can do that, so there's no reason Relic can't.

Sure, except adding basic stuff like that won't seriously improve the diversity of the factions. They're not bland because you can't build sandbags or tank traps. The problem is far deeper than that.

source?

the in game store

Sure, except adding basic stuff like that won't seriously improve the diversity of the factions. They're not bland because you can't build sandbags or tank traps. The problem is far deeper than that.

I'm not just talking about the static defenses, I mean a lot of the doctrinal abilities. Even if I was, God forbid you take some steps to at least improve the situation. Christ, I didn't think all you guys would be so obstinate to fixing problems everyone agrees on.

I'm not just talking about the static defenses, I mean a lot of the doctrinal abilities. Even if I was, God forbid you take some steps to at least improve the situation. Christ, I didn't think all you guys would be so obstinate to fixing problems everyone agrees on.

Inverse is being realistic, that's all. There is a clear pattern of releasing new content over re-vamping old content. A lot of design time would be spent reworking the old factions, and wouldn't provide them with any money for the effort.

Something that people tend to forget, or maybe have not realised, is that some (4 each) of the Core Commanders for the vanilla factions are also designed to be used in 1941 TOW.

The compromises involved in that design objective tend to mean that they aren't that hot in the 1944-45 setting of automatch.

If you take those out of the equation, there is a lot less redundant overlap; and I suspect that Relic have learnt from that and we will no longer see Commanders designed to do dual duty like that.