The OKW conundrum

The core issues for me are Volksgrenadiere and the Flak Halftrack. Volksgrenadiere for infantry fights are awful if you cannot pick up enemy weapons with them. They start off worse than enemy infantry and it only gets worse over time as the enemy gains weapon upgrades (USF) or better infantry (Soviet). It was always like that actually, although it is slightly worse now thanks to the reworked Vet5 bonus. But it hurts more now that you cannot just rely as easily on Obersoldaten to bring you back into the infantry game, because they are less potent and more expensive. The Panzerschreck blobbing lost also potency with the accuracy nerf, and if you rely on Obersoldaten you will fight for munition more. So there is even less reason to build too many Volksgrenadier squads.

Personally I just go for doctrinal infantry instead now, they are potent and come earlier than Obersoldaten so you can fight back against enemy infantry. I try to not build too many Volksgrenadiere in the early game and rather spend excess manpower into something like a leIG.

The Flak Halftrack, as you say, is very easy to lose and if you lose it too early you are usually in big trouble. Even if you do not lose it, you constantly have to be scared to do so. Any kind of AT presence means that your operation radius with the Flak Halftrack is greatly reduced. Unreliable behaviour when the terrain blocks your shots doesn't help either.

Because it's totally useless to be able to get an artillery vehicle or long-range tank destroyer later...try going without AT guns as Allies before you declare backteching as OKW is frivolous (and of course even if you don't build anything from the building, the building still heals+reinforces/repairs/giant flak gun).

The only trucks the okw needs are the med truck and the flak truck. Mechanised has a very poor units selection at the moment. lol track and lol puma. walking stuka is good but why squander the fuel and dont get a ST ?

And LT plus major also has everything it needs.

And LT plus major also has everything it needs.

I wouldn't say that. If you start falling behind on fuel players can't fall back on AT guns for AT, that is of course if you don't have airborne. LT plus major is very much a keep the lead or else type of build.

Agreed with the idea to make the trucks more expensive but return resource income to 100%.

OKW is currently nearly impossible to make a comeback with if you fail to secure good fuel income early game.


(3v3 and 4v4 is another matter, maybe keep the resource income to 66% there? AND keep extra cost on fuel trucks). Just an idea to slow down the panther rush in 4v4s.

In 1v1s however the resource debuff is now just unnecessary.

In a close or losing 1v1 game its rare any OKW player will get all 3 trucks. (and field vehicles).

Im aware not all factions ideally get all their tech buildings constructed, but their tanks come faster and cheaper. + theres alot more decent call-in options.


OKW Call-in tanks are....

Ostwind - Situational, would be far more worth the fuel to spend it on teching to a panther.
Panzer 4's - Crap and overpriced.
Command panther - Probably the only decent/realistic tank call in for a 1v1.... (200 fuel is alot tho) Means usually skipping the last tech, if you want this on the field to counter the 2 - 3 shermans/t34's that have also now arrived.
Jagdtiger - not really a good idea for 1v1s. If you can save up this much fuel, your enemy was doing something wrong.


So yea the call-in options are nowhere near as useful as the Soviets (T34'85's IS2's KV8's KV1's Sherman).

Or the USF's.... (Mortar HT, Easy 8's, Hell,cats, Dozer sherman, Priest.) (all under 150 fuel)


Mega difference is... the allied call-ins are mostly single call-ins and cheaper (except soviets but their callins are bloody strong, and easier to save up for since they dont suffer from a 66% fuel income debuff), and more versatile.
OKW callins are literally... "Call me in and forget about teching for a while". and likely the only vehicles you will have that game.

In a nutshell all other factions call-ins are priced and effective enough to AUGMENT your force....
(the intended game element to call-in units).

But with OKW they will actually BE your force, because you cant really call in doctrinal tanks and tech tanks in a 1v1.




Extra thought.... would be nice to see volks with more versatility...

for example:
AT Package: (x1shrek for 90 ammo)
AI package: (x1Lmg34 for 65 ammo)
Assault package (x5Mp40's for 70 ammo)
Only ONE of these can be purchased per squad.

Gives them abit more viability other than 1 overpriced shrek team.

i would like to see a bit more capability to poke and prod, we get the best td for 185 fuel, and a troll of an assault gun. give sturm pios the tools to be a shock unit, and give me something i can use to assault.

Another fix that's been suggested before that Iv found might work would be bumping Volks up to costing 255 MP and making them the middle ground between riflemen and gren's giving OKW a bit better early game but giving them more of a MP drain.

Currently in 1's and 2's the Kubel can often be a liability due to the reduced capping power you have early game, personally I would find it better if the Kubel and MG34 were swapped.

Currently in 1's and 2's the Kubel can often be a liability due to the reduced capping power you have early game, personally I would find it better if the Kubel and MG34 were swapped.

not to mention it explodes as soon as the clock ticks 5:00. infantry detection lets it scale at least a little bit, but please, give this thing some armor at vet 2 or something. personally i think the kubel should be the okw scout and sniper counter.

Currently in 1's and 2's the Kubel can often be a liability due to the reduced capping power you have early game, personally I would find it better if the Kubel and MG34 were swapped.

The Kübelwagen + Sturmpionier rush to a cutoff is quite nasty. That more then offsets the lost capping power. Just hide the Sturmpios behind a hedge and only engage the suppressed squads. Works quite good on Semoiski or Road to Charkow.

let's not get it twisted. mech reg vs. USF that hasn't gone AB or Cpt. thus lacking a 57mm is still a good match up in the OKW's favour but damn if it's tough otherwise.

let's not get it twisted. mech reg vs. USF that hasn't gone AB or Cpt. thus lacking a 57mm is still a good match up in the OKW's favour but damn if it's tough otherwise.

One would think but the US Flak HT shuts down the its OKW counterpart entirely, and a Puma follow-up is problematic if only because you really, really need heal at this stage....

The Kübelwagen + Sturmpionier rush to a cutoff is quite nasty. That more then offsets the lost capping power. Just hide the Sturmpios behind a hedge and only engage the suppressed squads. Works quite good on Semoiski or Road to Charkow.

Dunno. The fact that you can no longer truck push has undermined the viability of that approach a lot...also, ironically this is very weak to double Echelon openers.

I think relic should place the MG34 in the medic truck instead of as a doctrinal unit. Just to give OKW players another option other than going flak HT. And some suppression(not fuel costing) will help out a bit.

[...]
My major problem with OKW is lack of medium armor.

This is a design problem that has bugged me from the start. Things that, from a logical perspective, just shouldn't be locked in a doctrine. Same as Soviet PPsH shouldn't be locked in a doctrine.

Things that are in a doctrine should either be...
- sth that has an 'elite' vibe to it (Heavies, very elite infantry)
- sth that was rather seldom which has a unique and recognizeable character (Osttruppen come to mind)


Conclusion: I wish OKW had MG34 and also that callin Pz4 with armored skirts without a doctrine, and Soviets had PPsH and a T34/85 upgrade without doctrines. The stuff that feels like 'basic army' shouldn't be locked in a doctrine, that just feels illogical... and you don't need to be a history buff to notcie that.



[That aside, I really like all the units they put in. I just dislike where they put some of them :/]

This is a design problem that has bugged me from the start. Things that, from a logical perspective, just shouldn't be locked in a doctrine. Same as Soviet PPsH shouldn't be locked in a doctrine.

Things that are in a doctrine should either be...
- sth that has an 'elite' vibe to it (Heavies, very elite infantry)
- sth that was rather seldom which has a unique and recognizeable character (Osttruppen come to mind)


Conclusion: I wish OKW had MG34 and also that callin Pz4 with armored skirts without a doctrine, and Soviets had PPsH and a T34/85 upgrade without doctrines. The stuff that feels like 'basic army' shouldn't be locked in a doctrine, that just feels illogical... and you don't need to be a history buff to notcie that.



[That aside, I really like all the units they put in. I just dislike where they put some of them :/]

Yes right on, this shit should of been incorporated into the basic army most definitely.

I agree that OKW deserves some love again, but i dont think its as bad as some people make it out to be. Im still having the same success and winrate as before.

OKW are not in dire straits like most non-rare doctrine games as Ostheer, but they still suffer in 1v1 vs Guard Motor.

I like the idea of having real fuel income for fiarly priced HQs, it offsets the game breaking possibility of losing my new Flak Halftrack to the American counterpart.

Volksgrenadiers might need a bit of oomph, they don't do much early on but they scale like a madman so they're not terrible. Obersoldaten need to be reworked I think if the resource income stays as it is. Remove the 60 munitions LMG upgrade, make them cost 440 manpower whilst keeping reinforcement the same, and slightly increasing their upkeep (I know it's proportionate but exceptions should eb made for them). This makes them less spammable whilst staying viable and might halt some of that OKW "Oh look I've got one thousand manpower" floats you see around. I suggest increase the upkeep since they dance bullets too well to reinforce much.

Sicne truck pushing and crushing structures was effectively nullified, I have suggested before that OKW get some usefulness out of the Raketenwerfer early on instead of it just being there in the HQ looking silly, give it an AOE that costs munitions, 15-30, that can only be targetted against structures to attempt to blast the cheeky Conscripts out.

Guard Motor is more of a threat now down to PTRS Guards sniping Volks left right and centre and since the Kubel can't take them on seeing the MG34 in game would be an idea I support, locked behind a tier of tech.

Buff commanders. Elite Armor is a joke, FJ made of paper, flak emplacement is utter garbage.

Remake obers vet to partially compensate their nerf and reduce reinforcement cost, as unit preforms nowhere near 50mp per model.

Buff ze mighty sturmtiger.

This.

I'd just like to add with the current meta, I dont think you need to up the cost of getting a panther out just for 4v4s. Often times the thing is up against 3 to 1 odds. With ost as an ally its not so bad but a pure okw team can get wrecked if they lose a tank.

Why OKW is broken now? My opinion (expressed in another thread):

" Before latest patch, there were cheesee tactics that people were tempted to use because they were making things easier for you (less micro for instance). Besides these tactics there were others, harder to use, but effective nontheless.
After latest patch, when OKW was nerfed, the cheesee tactics remain the only ones viable, if you want to win, of course. Anything else you do, you are next to dead. So now, these cheesee tactics are not only easier, but necessary, and they are still failing in almost 50% of cases.

So, the "lack of adaptation" you accuse it's in fact THE adaptation to what OKW currently is.

From my point of view, I am not complaining that OKW is such a bad designed faction. Its initial design was not bad, let's remember they had the same penalty for fuel AND for amo. It had a few units that somewhat overperformed making fuel and amo penalties to feel like not enough. Those units needed a little tonning down and all would have been fine, keeping the initial resource penalties.
To give you a little example: the first raketen nerf was too much. They should have kept raketen as a reliable AT weapon and kept the 66% amo income percent. That would have forced OKW to COMBINE its shrecked volks (that were not enough) with the raketen. And so on.

But what Relic did? They started to nerf left and right, then felt bad about it and increased the amo income to 100% (hello shreck blobs) then felt even worst about it and nurfed the amo income to 80% still not solving the problem of cheesee tactics and still modifying and nurfing almost every OKW unit.

And what we have today, it's a product not of a bad design, but of a bad management of a faction that forces you to play in 2-3 ways at most, or suffer defeat. Nice. "

How are people still fimding shreks a problem balance wise? The true fix would be to add in am anti-tank team and change volks up a little. Resource penalties are fine. Vet 5 is fine. The only thing that needs to be done is change up units either through tweaking of cost and performance. Okw teching is also fine.

Schrecks on Volks in 1s and 2s have never, ever been a real problem. Mind you, when Volks had better long range accuracy, Raks were a good deal weaker in turn.
In 3s and 4s I am quite willing to believe that this is different.