Rifleman cost-effectiveness

Right now, I think 3 things about rifleman are too cost-effective.

1) Flamers

The cost of a flamer on each rifle squad is 60 munitions. The amount of DPS it provides feels (I don't know about exact stats) comparable to double bars or lmgs, which would cost 120/140 munis respectively. I think this is mainly because the other 4 non-flamer rifles do so much damage, it's easy to bring axis units down to a point where flame crits will destroy them.

Honestly, I think this ability should be removed. Flamethrowers are generally so strong that I think that only engineers should really have them; their lack of durability keeps the weapon from being too ridiculous. However, with that change being unrealistic, I think the cost of a flamer should be increased to 90 munitions. This brings it closer in line to other weapon costs with similar DPS.

Alternatively, I think it would be interesting for each flamer to reduce munitions income, like 3 per flamerthrower, only for rifle flamethrowers, at maybe 3 per flamethrower per minute. That way, players don't pay 90 munitions for a flame crit in 50s; it's proportional to use.

2) Infantry company LMGs and Defensive stance

I think defensive stance is too powerful at the current cost; it only costs 1 lmg to access, can be triggered anywhere at any time, and you can get out of and back into defensive stance very quickly. That means for 70 munitions, each rifle squad can virtually act as an mg, without any of the downsides like packing and unpacking or having to pick a direction.

Optimally, I'd remove this ability all together, because I think it's antithetical to allied aggressive and mobile play, but I doubt that's likely. I think a realistic fix to this is that it allows rifles to have yellow cover, but no suppression, and that it should only be usable when out of combat. It is Defesive stance after all. The whole point is to hold the line, not have a mobile suppression platform.

I think another potential solution is to make suppressing fire cost 20 munitions, the way it functions on paratroopers right now. This would force the player to have to make a choice between suppressing now or getting more lmgs in the long term.

3) Veteran rifleman

The cost of 20mp for vet or vet 2 is pretty absurd. I think it should cost 10 fuel in addition to the 300 manpower per rifleman; this is considerably cheaper than the only other similar mechanic, troop training on elite troops. It's current function, of giving a very powerful rifle early on, gives USF so much more damage at a point in the game where it's already strong.

This ability should have an early game drawback, and function mainly as a counter to attrition, with a significant cost.

Defensive stance is implemented poorly. It should only be possible to engage it while out of combat, rather than something you can just charge up to someone and click on.

Other than that I don't see major issues. Rifle flamers in particular seem to explode on me all the damned time and you can't rebuild them. Vet riflemen + flamers are a good combo in Rifle doc, definitely. However most of the time (depending on map) it's not the best doctrine to pick. Rifle, Infantry and Airborne are all viable, and AB in particular is the best overall doctrine. Maybe you could increase the cost of flamers slightly or something, but I wouldn't want a major nerf.

Definately Defensive Stance, you shouldn't be able to using it like a supercharged HTD.

It might be a different story if flamethrowers didn't regularly explode, but as is that flamethrower upgrade is just as likely to blow up in your face.


The only thing remarkable about veteran riflemen is the fact that you're saved the trouble of vetting through to a useless rank of vet. Lets talk when a well timed bought vet Ostheer unit doesn't wipe out an entire squad out of nowhere.

Just rifle grenade them when they are prone in the defensive stance or run them over with a tracked vehicle or use a sniper early on and bleed the USF. OST indirect fire mortars, mortar HT chew them up equally.

Only issue is that defensive stance should not be able to be active while in combat. It should only be used when expecting infantry to attack. Hence: "defensive stance" not, "Run up hop into prone to suppress stance"

Omg... nerf allied?? Blasphemy...

But seriously, first of all I would remove RNG flamethrower explosion for every goddamn Flamer, just like Penals. Then:

-I think FlameRifles are fine, maybe increase command points a bit. But overall they are fine since axis generally have better Long Range DPS, so bleed like hell when closing in. Although they are far better platforms than CEs and Pios.

-Double LMG rifles are problematic, and your descriptions says it all. Either add a cooldown (15 seconds?) or make them pay for suppression. Right now they just suppress high value targets (Sturmpios, Obers, Pzgrens or LMG grens) and perform like a mobile HMG on demand.

-Vet rifles are also fine IMO. Although you pay only slightly more MP, you can't spam them from the beginning like you could in a couple of patches ago. The commander in general is very good though.

PS: Elite troops costs fuel because you can vet up any unit, not just core infantry. Just vet up your mortar or HMG early game and just watch them shred every thing (1s and 2s). It's OP in large games. Totally OP.

Funny things... Defensive stance is used to attack and bliztkrieg is used to run away...

Funny things... Defensive stance is used to attack and bliztkrieg is used to run away...

Relic logic?

Only double M1919 Rifles are a problem, limit it to 1/squad and done

Funny things... Defensive stance is used to attack and bliztkrieg is used to run away...

Ostheer vet 1 medical supplies used on a slightly damaged squad for it to get some healing for the small arms fire it'll take as it leads the vanguard?

1) Flamers

Flamers are fine,those are not the problem in that doctrine.

2) Infantry company LMGs and Defensive stance

Yeah currently defensive stance is broken, but just because you can "de-setup" while in combat so you can easily dodge nades, bring back the impossibility to get up in combat outside of retreating and it'll be fine, a good risk/reward ability.

3) Veteran rifleman

Move them to 2 CPs they have no reason to be at 0, they will be a replacement for lost rifles instead of an early unit replacement,cost can stay the same.

Move them to 2 CPs they have no reason to be at 0, they will be a replacement for lost rifles instead of an early unit replacement,cost can stay the same.

Eh, I really wouldn't like that. Who wants a doctrine option that's mostly there for when you're losing units? Like Rapid Conscription/Relief Infantry, except requiring it go even worse for ya! I'd rather remove the randomness of the XP to make it vet 1 only on spawning and go from there, because the times when a veteran Riflemen squad comes in and gets vet 2 in the first firefight are real silly times.

Yeah currently defensive stance is broken, but just because you can "de-setup" while in combat so you can easily dodge nades, bring back the impossibility to get up in combat outside of retreating and it'll be fine, a good risk/reward ability.

Oh god no. Don't lock it in place once fighting happens. That's what they did to hit the dirt, which is now literally useless.

I'll accept only setting up out of combat, but not being able to even sluggishly dodge a grenade is pretty much the end of any infantry ability when fighting Ost. Remember, rifle grenades have a range of approximately a thousand nautical miles.

Or less sarcastically, once your infantry spots one another to start firing, the grens are basically in rifle nade range already.

Funny things... Defensive stance is used to attack and bliztkrieg is used to run away...

On tanks that'd never have participated in such actions.


The Panther and the Tiger didn't show up till Germany was on the retreat.

I moved for the veteran riflemen because I find it quite 'unfair' to play against Veteran 2 riflemen that can win an engagement against my grens without losing a model after 1 minute.

The commander itself has no downsides in my opinion as it provides the best early game advantage of all commanders and also has the best USF tank for the end game.

There is not a single useless ability with Rifle Commander.

I moved for the veteran riflemen because I find it quite 'unfair' to play against Veteran 2 riflemen that can win an engagement against my grens without losing a model after 1 minute.

There is not a single useless ability with Rifle Commander.

It is so redonk. The XP should just be set at vet 1, no more. It might still need work after that, but it'll be a lot more tolerable than well, what you've described.

Which is currently not balanced right now in comparison to all the other options, but is a very good thing. None of us want commanders filled with good options along with bad options, we want them all to work well.

Oh god no. Don't lock it in place once fighting happens. That's what they did to hit the dirt, which is now literally useless.

I'll accept only setting up out of combat, but not being able to even sluggishly dodge a grenade is pretty much the end of any infantry ability when fighting Ost. Remember, rifle grenades have a range of approximately a thousand nautical miles.

Or less sarcastically, once your infantry spots one another to start firing, the grens are basically in rifle nade range already.

It used to work like that 1 or 2 patches ago and it was still viable, just not a broken I-win button, keep in mind that ost is always starved, you can waste a rifle nade on 1 maybe 2 squads, not 4 or 5, and then with what are you going to faust the inevitable double or triple sherman rushing & crushing your infantry?

Only issue is that defensive stance should not be able to be active while in combat. It should only be used when expecting infantry to attack. Hence: "defensive stance" not, "Run up hop into prone to suppress stance"

Lock veteran riflemen to cp 2-3, but make it consistently give vet 2 rifles. That way it can't be abused early game, and gives USF player easy to replace riflemen for late game. Nerf vet gain so it takes longer for them to get to vet 3 though than say a normal vet 2 riflemen. 20 more manpower for a squad that already has vet and is a call in is a steal.