Remove free lieutenant

AS i was arguing for this on another thread,the main factors behind usf-ost matchup being problematic for ost -
1.Free lieutenant with BARs and thompson arrives and gives usf automatic numerical advantage.This squad is worth nearly 1.5-2 unupgraded grenadiers squads due to the inherent weapons it comes with.
This along with total dominance of riflemen over grenadiers gives the usf superiority in both qualitative and quantitative fields early on.Relic has stated last patch they want to reduce difference between factions in both earlygame and lategame.As long as this extremely powerful free unit exists it will break the matchup.USF don't need this unit...their earlygame is overwhelming as it is.Why do they get automatic numbers and quality advantage,makes zero sense.

The massive pressure exerted by both more and superior infantry,is then exaceberated by an ultra fast light vehicle forcing ost to expend more manpower to tech fast.This dual pressure generally is enough for usf player to gain map control.While the second issue can be fixed more or less by some small shuffling in tech costs..first problem is fundamental...the free arrival of such a powerful unit breaks the balance of power completely...giving usf both numerical adn quality advantage without having to work for it.
Thus the 'free' lieutenant is a game breaking feature of this matchup and needs to go.Us don't need this,they already have quality..they don't need free quantity either.

i wouldnt mind all officers being purchasables after tier unlock. cost adjusted slightly ofc.

It's not only about the cost, the timing is also off, 4 minutes in and you are T1 with a potent unit like Lt.

Teching for each army is unique, I think this would not solve any issues.

Personally I would love all faction to get Ostheer teching (+ something extra like Lt, Med, and somthething for Ost ans Sov as an upgrade to the building).
Asymetrical design is pudding unless you are gradening awesome at balancing games (well... Relic is not).
Im playing RTS games for year and best were the ones with mirror design.

AS i was arguing for this on another thread,the main factors behind usf-ost matchup being problematic for ost -
1.Free lieutenant with BARs and thompson arrives and gives usf automatic numerical advantage.This squad is worth nearly 1.5-2 unupgraded grenadiers squads due to the inherent weapons it comes with.
This along with total dominance of riflemen over grenadiers gives the usf superiority in both qualitative and quantitative fields early on.Relic has stated last patch they want to reduce difference between factions in both earlygame and lategame.As long as this extremely powerful free unit exists it will break the matchup.USF don't need this unit...their earlygame is overwhelming as it is.Why do they get automatic numbers and quality advantage,makes zero sense.

The massive pressure exerted by both more and superior infantry,is then exaceberated by an ultra fast light vehicle forcing ost to expend more manpower to tech fast.This dual pressure generally is enough for usf player to gain map control.While the second issue can be fixed more or less by some small shuffling in tech costs..first problem is fundamental...the free arrival of such a powerful unit breaks the balance of power completely...giving usf both numerical adn quality advantage without having to work for it.
Thus the 'free' lieutenant is a game breaking feature of this matchup and needs to go.Us don't need this,they already have quality..they don't need free quantity either.

Nope, since they have to tech for grenade/BAR/Bazooka, when you get those free with Ostheer teching. And since Gren are cheaper than Rifle, do your math.

Snipe the squad, suppress them with an MG.focus them and LT model himself will die first losing a lot of DPS from his thompson, upgrade an LMG, don't just go 4 grens with pios against USF, veto the right maps, blah blah you won't listen anyway blah blah

Snipe the squad, suppress them with an MG.focus them and LT model himself will die first losing a lot of DPS from his thompson, upgrade an LMG, don't just go 4 grens with pios against USF, veto the right maps, blah blah you won't listen anyway blah blah

And the LT model costs 50 MP btw.

Snipe the squad, suppress them with an MG.focus them and LT model himself will die first losing a lot of DPS from his thompson, upgrade an LMG, don't just go 4 grens with pios against USF, veto the right maps, blah blah you won't listen anyway blah blah

That's a really trolly answer, you accused a forum user of whining and addressed an issue he didn't raise.

The problem isn't that the officers are OP, they're not. It's that the US has no tech-lull (a short period during which your squad number doesn't not increase). This means they have better quality units & a higher number of units & a fast light vehicle.

The Ost player is forced to spend early manpower on a Pak just in case. This leaves him without manpower to fight the larger numbers of infantry and all this is compounded by having to wait through the Ost tech lull (tech time + pio retreat + build time + unit build time)



I'm not saying USF is OP overall, I'm saying the gameplay of the first 8 minutes is spoiled by this tech system.

That's a really trolly answer, you accused a forum user of whining and addressed an issue he didn't raise.

The problem isn't that the officers are OP, they're not. It's that the US has no tech-lull (a short period during which your squad number doesn't not increase). This means they have better quality units & a higher number of units & a fast light vehicle.

The Ost player is forced to spend early manpower on a Pak just in case. This leaves him without manpower to fight the larger numbers of infantry and all this is compounded by having to wait through the Ost tech lull (tech time + pio retreat + build time + unit build time)



I'm not saying USF is OP overall, I'm saying the gameplay of the first 8 minutes is spoiled by this tech system.

Rifle must go back to base to pick up BAR. Here is your "lull" time. And try the Sniper, USF has no real counter to that unit.

That's a really trolly answer, you accused a forum user of whining and addressed an issue he didn't raise.

The problem isn't that the officers are OP, they're not. It's that the US has no tech-lull (a short period during which your squad number doesn't not increase). This means they have better quality units & a higher number of units & a fast light vehicle.

The Ost player is forced to spend early manpower on a Pak just in case. This leaves him without manpower to fight the larger numbers of infantry and all this is compounded by having to wait through the Ost tech lull (tech time + pio retreat + build time + unit build time)

This is a really trolley thread from a really trolly biased user.
He clearly said the officer has weapons that are overwhelmingly powerful and all that typical austerlitz exaggeration


Pio
Gren
Gren
Mg
Sniper or another gren
VS


RE
Rifle
Rifle
Rifle
LT


M20 slightly later, with222,halftrack, or pak coming shortly after that.

M20 can be a bitch depending on the map, which I why is said vetos are important.
otherwise this is yet another biased tear post from austerlitz where he will refuse the help given and make excuse after excuse.

I honestly dont understand why people are so fond of making mass balance complaints, yet provide zero replays on how to actually improve..

I mean in the end bitching about balance is going to make you simply frustrated. Relic pretty much completely ignores these forums when it comes to balance. They mainly rely on their own data pulling machine thingy, and also the alpha testers.

Instead of bitching about something that perhaps wont get fixed for months, perhaps it is better to actually try and figure out a strat how to counter it? Provide replays?


As for the "lull time" in USF teching , it does exist. A very short one, but it does exist. It happens once the ostheer player gets 60 munitions and gets a flamethrower. When that happens, it usually ends up being like this RE, 3 rifles, LT in production, 3 grens + mg + flamer pio.

This theoretically gives the ostheer player a short time frame in where he can push, or atleast gain some map control. I actually dont retreat my flamer pios, unless they get low health, i build a second pio once i research T2.

You have no reason to not buy flamers in the early game againts USF, you can easily get a second pio sweeper later on if you suspect m20 mines or democharges.

Such arguments

I honestly dont understand why people are so fond of making mass balance complaints, yet provide zero replays on how to actually improve..

I mean in the end bitching about balance is going to make you simply frustrated. Relic pretty much completely ignores these forums when it comes to balance. They mainly rely on their own data pulling machine thingy, and also the alpha testers.

Instead of bitching about something that perhaps wont get fixed for months, perhaps it is better to actually try and figure out a strat how to counter it? Provide replays?

.........

Thank you, Burts

As you clearly realise, the Balance threads here were for a long time, little short of hopeless. It is an unfortunate carry over from GR.org., where useless threads were pushed into Balance. The same thing continued here, albeit not supposed to. Therefore, your crit that Relic are likely to ignore Balance hurts, but is currently acceptable.

However! It is starting to change...since last Summer. It has become more and more clear, that lazy posters,who have a half chance of their stinking thread being "grown", plant their gross "offering" ( in other words, a turd) in Balance, (rather as a dog sh1ts carelessly, as it meanders along on its daily walk), in order to gain attention. This exploit diminishes on a weekly basis, as the Mods trail behind, clearing up the stuff with a 'pooper-scooper'.

It is the current intention that the Balance forum will cleansed,a la Augean Stables. When our Herculean task is complete, the Balance forum will be cleansed and will be a place to visit, with respect.

I honestly dont understand why people are so fond of making mass balance complaints, yet provide zero replays on how to actually improve..

I mean in the end bitching about balance is going to make you simply frustrated. Relic pretty much completely ignores these forums when it comes to balance. They mainly rely on their own data pulling machine thingy, and also the alpha testers.

Instead of bitching about something that perhaps wont get fixed for months, perhaps it is better to actually try and figure out a strat how to counter it? Provide replays?


As for the "lull time" in USF teching , it does exist. A very short one, but it does exist. It happens once the ostheer player gets 60 munitions and gets a flamethrower. When that happens, it usually ends up being like this RE, 3 rifles, LT in production, 3 grens + mg + flamer pio.

This theoretically gives the ostheer player a short time frame in where he can push, or atleast gain some map control. I actually dont retreat my flamer pios, unless they get low health, i build a second pio once i research T2.

You have no reason to not buy flamers in the early game againts USF, you can easily get a second pio sweeper later on if you suspect m20 mines or democharges.

Yes, the thread titles should be like this "Positioning and build order vs Unit X" instead of this "Nerf Unit X". The strategy forum should be used a lot more often but I guess people prefer to ALWAYS blame Relic. There's whining in pretty much every chat or thread. I mean why do you even play this game when you're constantly bitching about it and arguing about what should be changed rather than talking about the game like other poeple talk about their hobbies.

Example:

What do you think about the final match yeaterday ?

Sports fan: Man I think team X could have won it if Coach Y had given Player Z a chance.

CoH Fan: Man that stupid RNG yesterday ESPORTS MVGame And have you seen that Blob ? Keepo This game sucks Kappa

I know twitch chat has always been like that but couldn't we try to at least have a more positive atmosphere in the forums?

Sorry for shitty english and OT I'm tired as hell.

Btw: I don't mind a few trolls (Ivan, Gaddafi etc) and a twitch face here and there

This is a really trolley thread from a really trolly biased user.
He clearly said the officer has weapons that are overwhelmingly powerful and all that typical austerlitz exaggeration

You made a couple of points I can agree with - about maps and unit variety.


I think you may have misread Austerlitz:
Cookiez: "He clearly said the officer has weapons that are overwhelmingly powerful"
Austerlitz: "Free lieutenant with BARs and thompson arrives and gives usf automatic numerical advantage.This squad is worth nearly 1.5-2 unupgraded grenadiers squads due to the inherent weapons it comes with."

He didn't say they were overwhelmingly powerful. He said they were 1.5/2 times more powerful than a gren squad. To me that sounds about right. Would you say a gren is evenly matched with an Lt.?


But the key point that you might have missed is that not only do the officers come with effective weapons without a munitions cost, but also there is no tech-lull.


I'd be interested to hear your opinion, you seem unbiased for the most part. So: "The USF have a steady stream of strong infantry units in the early game with no production gap which lead seamlessly into light vehicles. This is one of the major problems with the Ost-USF match-up." What dya think?

There needs to be a change on USF teching in general, the reason literally all top players go LT over Captain is the insane shock value you get. At that point, you can have an RE, 3 rifle squads, and an LT on the field in the time Ostheer can reasonably pull out 2 Grens and 2 MGs. Ost teching actually requires the retreat or purchase of a pioneer and time invested, and they aren't getting a free shock value unit out of it.

Combine the LT with the relatively quick M20, and its pretty easy to see why top 1v1 players have insane USF streaks over 50.

There needs to be a change on USF teching in general, the reason literally all top players go LT over Captain is the insane shock value you get. At that point, you can have an RE, 3 rifle squads, and an LT on the field in the time Ostheer can reasonably pull out 2 Grens and 2 MGs. Ost teching actually requires the retreat or purchase of a pioneer and time invested, and they aren't getting a free shock value unit out of it.

Combine the LT with the relatively quick M20, and its pretty easy to see why top 1v1 players have insane USF streaks over 50.

Then why all top USF player in 1v1 don't have 50+ streak?

Then why all top USF player in 1v1 don't have 50+ streak?

Paul.A.D does.

Obviously I'm being hyperbolic. OMGPOP had something like a +68 streak since WFA launch.