please bear in mind the maps. when 3's + start to resemble dota lanes, meta-counters like flanking are negated and thusly defensive factions gain an edge.
This is the largest part of the issue IMO, maps for 3's and 4's are often times just terrible.
Balance of power has shifted to Allies in 4v4AT (imo)
11 May 2015, 18:08 PM
#161
Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1
This is the largest part of the issue IMO, maps for 3's and 4's are often times just terrible.
12 May 2015, 00:51 AM
#162
4 
Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2
I can't believe this thread right now. Arguments just kind of dissipated a page ago in favor of player attacks and strawmanning.
Anyways, in my opinion, the soviets are currently the strongest 2s and up faction because of their access to callins and decent elite infantry with doctrines. They are also arguably the best 1v1 faction if you consider the fact that they have no real weaknesses through the game. They are decent early, mid, and lategame with callins. In my opinion, they are the most boring faction, but the most powerful faction.
USF are very powerful in 1 vs. 1, due to their strong early game. However, for any game that lasts longer than 20 minutes, USF players are for the most part forced into airborne or infantry companys to have any lategame infantry firepower whatsoever. This strong early -> weak late leads to them scaling very badly in larger gamemodes (where the early/midgame passes quickly) and leaves them feeling like a support army more than anything.
OKW is currently the weakest faction in 1v1, but scales drastically in larger teamgames where it is possible to have their weaknesses covered by ostheer teammates. In 1v1, they get wrecked by soviet t1 openings, and are only on an equal footing vs. USF because of the kubelwagon. Their access to vet 5 gives them extreme power in the lategame, which makes them a but like the opposite of USF in terms of power scaling.
Ostheer is, in my opinion, the best designed faction, and the best nondoctrinal army. For ostheer, teching is linear, and they have access to all of their units by the time they are needed. T4 is a little too expensive, but there are few units in the ostheer arsenal that are currently underperforming (stugg and panzerwerfer). This huge choice of viable units allows them to pick and choose octrines that complement the individual players' style, and makes them have a lot more viable strategies. This translates into being a very good faction to use in all gamemodes. The only reason that they are not quite as good as soviets is due to soviets' ability to use callins to skip teching costs and give their early->midgame power a large boost in the endgame.
What does all this mean? It means that I believe that allies have the edge in all game modes, but only due to the callin meta. Without the callin meta to prop the soviets as a useful faction, the balance of power would be indisputably in the favor of the axis.
1v1 and 4v4 are very different. your opinion on 1v1 does not really translate to your conclusion. not only that, quiet a few 3v3+ maps have extra resource points and caches are more prevalent. which means waiting for call in actually does have more opp cost.
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12 May 2015, 05:22 AM
#163
Posts: 8
please bear in mind the maps. when 3's + start to resemble dota lanes, meta-counters like flanking are negated and thusly defensive factions gain an edge.
Then how did I get rank 11 in 3v3 AT so easily? We crush axis early and mid game with our aggressiveness. To be rank 11 after 11 games means we were most likely beating top 50-100 teams. Our 3rd partner in our team we had played a grand total of maybe 5 games with before we started.
12 May 2015, 05:34 AM
#164
Posts: 1283 | Subs: 4
Then how did I get rank 11 in 3v3 AT so easily? We crush axis early and mid game with our aggressiveness. To be rank 11 after 11 games means we were most likely beating top 50-100 teams. Our 3rd partner in our team we had played a grand total of maybe 5 games with before we started.
you tell me.
have a crack at the strategy section.i'm sure many players WHO DON'T POSSES SUCH ALMIGHTY, LORDLY TALENT such as yourself and your teammates are curious at to how you found success.
---
i only stated that conceptually they hold an edge. i didn't say that facing an axis AT would be like assaulting festung europa...
12 May 2015, 05:39 AM
#165
Posts: 133
I actually feel this is the most balanced the game has been for a long time. I don't feel like I'm at a serious disadvantage on any faction at any point of the game assuming I haven't been outplayed or made a serious mistake.
As for the complaints about ptrs spam on the anti tank doctrine, P-grens absolutely ruin them. Ran into a few axis players doing it and each time it was such a devastating loss that I swapped out the commander.
As for the complaints about ptrs spam on the anti tank doctrine, P-grens absolutely ruin them. Ran into a few axis players doing it and each time it was such a devastating loss that I swapped out the commander.
12 May 2015, 06:11 AM
#166
Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1
You counter it, on the same way you counter CAS.
Hm. Mind to elaborate more? Remember, it's a plane who attacks FIXED positions with no chance of ducking or moving: Deployed trucks, Pack 43 emplacements. So.....?
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
12 May 2015, 06:46 AM
#167
3 Posts: 322
I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but I think good 3v3/4v4 teams more often play Allies (for the challenge, cool factor, whatever...)
Maybe they lost a lot vs randoms in the past, but winning now doesn't necessarily mean the balance favours Allies.
Maybe they lost a lot vs randoms in the past, but winning now doesn't necessarily mean the balance favours Allies.
12 May 2015, 07:52 AM
#168
4 Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2
Then how did I get rank 11 in 3v3 AT so easily? We crush axis early and mid game with our aggressiveness. To be rank 11 after 11 games means we were most likely beating top 50-100 teams. Our 3rd partner in our team we had played a grand total of maybe 5 games with before we started.
because it is that easy for any decent AT and there are a lot of people who are high in ranks that do not actually deserve the ranks.
3v3+ AT ranks matter very little. and if i am to put a percentage value on how much your rank matters in this discussion, i would say non-percentage.
Turbotortoise's argument makes sense in that it is logical. your argument is nothing.
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12 May 2015, 17:35 PM
#169
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
Then how did I get rank 11 in 3v3 AT so easily? We crush axis early and mid game with our aggressiveness. To be rank 11 after 11 games means we were most likely beating top 50-100 teams. Our 3rd partner in our team we had played a grand total of maybe 5 games with before we started.
Been there done that. Winning your first 10 games against ANYONE puts you around top20. You can get to top10 by defeating constantly people above below top200. If you somehow dodge high ranked people (which tends to happen with a low population) you can really boost your ranks easily.
Try to mantain that rank, after 20-50 games, when the game actually waits a bit more (5-10mins) trying to put you against someone capable of defending themselves.
Hm. Mind to elaborate more? Remember, it's a plane who attacks FIXED positions with no chance of ducking or moving: Deployed trucks, Pack 43 emplacements. So.....?
I was referring to the fact that people defend how you can counter skillplanes by using AA. On both factions. Either you think both are fine or both are wrong.
Any bombing run can be countered in opposition to any kind strafe (at least the first pass). At leas the plane has to be inside the map to drop it's payload.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
13 May 2015, 01:43 AM
#170
Posts: 8
because it is that easy for any decent AT and there are a lot of people who are high in ranks that do not actually deserve the ranks.
3v3+ AT ranks matter very little. and if i am to put a percentage value on how much your rank matters in this discussion, i would say non-percentage.
Turbotortoise's argument makes sense in that it is logical. your argument is nothing.
Then go screenshot getting level 11 if it's so easy. I'll wait. This isn't coh1. In coh1, only 1v1 and 2v2 mattered. I was a top 200 player in coh1 in 1v1. In coh2, 2v2 and 3v3 are far more interesting. Also, if my "argument is nothing," and "3v3+ AT ranks matter very little." then why the fuck are you even here discussing this issue? Read the title of the thread. My only point is that allies have a slight advantage over axis, and axis are by no means OP. I do agree with posters who have said that all players are essentially forced into choosing a select few viable commanders to win, going for both axis and allies.
13 May 2015, 02:05 AM
#171
4 Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2
Then go screenshot getting level 11 if it's so easy. I'll wait. This isn't coh1. In coh1, only 1v1 and 2v2 mattered. I was a top 200 player in coh1 in 1v1. In coh2, 2v2 and 3v3 are far more interesting. Also, if my "argument is nothing," and "3v3+ AT ranks matter very little." then why the fuck are you even here discussing this issue? Read the title of the thread. My only point is that allies have a slight advantage over axis, and axis are by no means OP. I do agree with posters who have said that all players are essentially forced into choosing a select few viable commanders to win, going for both axis and allies.
check my playercard bro. 3v3 AT. I got rank 11 as axis with 86 wins and no losses. And the rank was better when we only had like 50 games except that one of us took a break for half a year and climbing from the decay takes forever. you think the rank and streak of 86 prove much? 75%+ of that were against noobs. we sure did have some real games that got down to the wire but not much.
why am i here? because you are spreading bs? and unlike other bs-ers here, i hadn't got tired of you yet.
i respect that you think allies have the edge, but back it up with logic and solid evidence.
offtopic:
| Playercard of Bo-Bobby Lion | |||||||||||||||
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13 May 2015, 03:59 AM
#172
Posts: 8
check my playercard bro. 3v3 AT. I got rank 11 as axis with 86 wins and no losses. And the rank was better when we only had like 50 games except that one of us took a break for half a year and climbing from the decay takes forever. you think the rank and streak of 86 prove much? 75%+ of that were against noobs. we sure did have some real games that got down to the wire but not much.
why am i here? because you are spreading bs? and unlike other bs-ers here, i hadn't got tired of you yet.
i respect that you think allies have the edge, but back it up with logic and solid evidence.
offtopic:
Playing on a different team got me to top 11. I play with good friends on the team you beat, we are top 100 on that team but not top 50. Different teams, different ranks. Simple.
Also, we aren't humble towards you. My friends talk loads of crap for fun in game, and I literally can't type in game due to script, so to whom are you referring?
13 May 2015, 04:02 AM
#173
Posts: 8
check my playercard bro. 3v3 AT. I got rank 11 as axis with 86 wins and no losses. And the rank was better when we only had like 50 games except that one of us took a break for half a year and climbing from the decay takes forever. you think the rank and streak of 86 prove much? 75%+ of that were against noobs. we sure did have some real games that got down to the wire but not much.
why am i here? because you are spreading bs? and unlike other bs-ers here, i hadn't got tired of you yet.
i respect that you think allies have the edge, but back it up with logic and solid evidence.
offtopic:
Specifically, what BS am I spreading? You keep talking with blustery, empty words. First off, calm down. It's a video game. Relax. Second off, tell me how I'm wrong. I am of the opinion that axis are not OP and that allies have a slight advantage due to their supremacy in the early to mid game. I am not saying anything too crazy here. Stop taking these matters personally (it shows), and let us talk like adults, assuming you are one.
13 May 2015, 04:47 AM
#174
4 Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2
Specifically, what BS am I spreading? You keep talking with blustery, empty words. First off, calm down. It's a video game. Relax. Second off, tell me how I'm wrong. I am of the opinion that axis are not OP and that allies have a slight advantage due to their supremacy in the early to mid game. I am not saying anything too crazy here. Stop taking these matters personally (it shows), and let us talk like adults, assuming you are one.
ok i am calm now. looked over your post and i see no difference.
your opinion is: allies are better off
your argument is: because allies have supremacy in early-mid game
and the thing that is supposed to give your argument some weight is your "impressive" ranks...
-----------------------------
my counterpoint, which i should have written in the first place, is:
this allies early game advantage works when you have room to maneuver. where you have space to flank early german suppression units. most 3v3+ maps are extremely small. there are no room to maneuver. Maneuverability is the centrepiece of allies "stronger" early and mid game.
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13 May 2015, 06:43 AM
#175
Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1
I was referring to the fact that people defend how you can counter skillplanes by using AA. On both factions. Either you think both are fine or both are wrong.
Any bombing run can be countered in opposition to any kind strafe (at least the first pass). At leas the plane has to be inside the map to drop it's payload.
If you imply that the "antitank" (in fact anti-everything) air strike from soviet tank hunters doctrine is comparable with air strikes from CAS you cannot be more wrong. The CAS air strikes are targeting a small precise area that you are able to avoid if you are paying attention. Saw that so many times. The air strike from tank hunters you see it comming and you can't do shit. The moment that plane appears, your deployed truck/PAK43 and any other imobile unit/emplacement in the target area is doomed. That affects OKW more than Ostheer because OKW loses buildings, not just units. And it can do shit about it. The moment you see such a plane brought down by any kind of AA before releasing its payload, make a video and post it please.
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
13 May 2015, 17:12 PM
#176
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
If you imply that the "antitank" (in fact anti-everything) air strike from soviet tank hunters doctrine is comparable with air strikes from CAS you cannot be more wrong. The CAS air strikes are targeting a small precise area that you are able to avoid if you are paying attention. Saw that so many times. The air strike from tank hunters you see it comming and you can't do shit. The moment that plane appears, your deployed truck/PAK43 and any other imobile unit/emplacement in the target area is doomed. That affects OKW more than Ostheer because OKW loses buildings, not just units. And it can do shit about it. The moment you see such a plane brought down by any kind of AA before releasing its payload, make a video and post it please.
So you are agreeing that every kind of skill plane, from the ones with strafes and the ones that delivers bombs are uncounterable right (on the sense that you can't kill them before them delivering their payload)?
The plane from the tanks doctrine is no different to the IL2 bombing strike or the fragmentation bombing from OH.
AA on this game is meant to counter loitering planes, not single pass planes unfortunately.
The thing is, if you can't defend your emplacements, don't put them on the front. A bombing strike is no different to an artillery call in that case.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
13 May 2015, 18:19 PM
#177
Posts: 2742
CP income is usually pretty balanced for 1v1s. In 4v4s, it is very slow in comparison. This significantly impacts factions that rely heavily on commander abilities. (You know, the Allies.)
In 4v4s I can usually be fielding a number of t3 and t4 units before I'm even to 10 CPs. It is not a challenge to have all necessary tier buildings up and have the resources for Tigers or IS2s or even t34/85s before CPs have unlocked them.
This is one of the major reasons team games are so wonky balance wise in CoH2. The call-in meta is not at all even across every game mode.
Simply, the more players there are, the slower the CP rate. For CP dependent factions, this has huge implications for gameplay and balance.
In 4v4s I can usually be fielding a number of t3 and t4 units before I'm even to 10 CPs. It is not a challenge to have all necessary tier buildings up and have the resources for Tigers or IS2s or even t34/85s before CPs have unlocked them.
This is one of the major reasons team games are so wonky balance wise in CoH2. The call-in meta is not at all even across every game mode.
Simply, the more players there are, the slower the CP rate. For CP dependent factions, this has huge implications for gameplay and balance.
Strategic Territory Points Mod:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
13 May 2015, 19:07 PM
#178
Posts: 2070
just a couple points
1. please don't bring 1v1 into here. 4v4 and 1v1 are vastly different modes. the playstyle is very different
2. i would advise on paying more attention to what ohme and jadame are saying. ohme is a veteran player and is very good at the game. jadame is one of the best players in 4v4 and belongs to one of the top teams. i have had the (mis)fortune of playing against him several times. I find that he is very objective as well when it comes to 4v4 analysis.
1. please don't bring 1v1 into here. 4v4 and 1v1 are vastly different modes. the playstyle is very different
2. i would advise on paying more attention to what ohme and jadame are saying. ohme is a veteran player and is very good at the game. jadame is one of the best players in 4v4 and belongs to one of the top teams. i have had the (mis)fortune of playing against him several times. I find that he is very objective as well when it comes to 4v4 analysis.
Axis doesn't have the best AT options in the game
14 May 2015, 05:59 AM
#179
Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1
So you are agreeing that every kind of skill plane, from the ones with strafes and the ones that delivers bombs are uncounterable right (on the sense that you can't kill them before them delivering their payload)?
What am I agreeing to, is that OKW has no chance to dodge because it uses deployed trucks and enplacements, UNLIKE any other faction. More than this, such strike is crippling for OKW because it DELETES a tier. This is UNDENIABLE.
The plane from the tanks doctrine is no different to the IL2 bombing strike or the fragmentation bombing from OH.
Oh, but it is.... It can wipe out a tier having no counter. Isn't this enough to make it different?
The thing is, if you can't defend your emplacements, don't put them on the front. A bombing strike is no different to an artillery call in that case.
Mind to explain then WHY on EARTH the OKW tiers were created as mobile trucks? If while playing OKW we build tiers only in base, then fuck this. Because OKW was built on the idea of placing at least one tier on the field.
You know I'm right, don't disagree with me just because you don't like me.
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
14 May 2015, 15:26 PM
#180
Posts: 2742
OKW was built as a completely different faction until just before WFA was released and they were completely revamped.
The whole intended dynamic of their trucks being mobile is almost entirely irrelevant to the faction now.
The medic HQ almost by definition shouldn't be put on the front. The conversion truck with automated repair pios also shouldn't be on the front lines for very similar reasons. Only the flak truck has any business being anywhere near the front lines.
Most times I see OKW players rushing their trucks to the front I usually watch them get decimated, then call for a surrender, then quit by minute 10.
The whole intended dynamic of their trucks being mobile is almost entirely irrelevant to the faction now.
The medic HQ almost by definition shouldn't be put on the front. The conversion truck with automated repair pios also shouldn't be on the front lines for very similar reasons. Only the flak truck has any business being anywhere near the front lines.
Most times I see OKW players rushing their trucks to the front I usually watch them get decimated, then call for a surrender, then quit by minute 10.
Strategic Territory Points Mod:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
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