Wires, Tank Traps, and to a lesser extent Teller/Riegel Mines are rarely seen (because you need a detector to see them kekek) when they were an integral part of WWII battlefields.
The obvious way to use Wires and Tank Traps is to shut off pathways and that does happen, but I have never seen anyone try and successfully fortrify an open area, or at least cleverly using these to greatly limit enemy movement. You know, using things like this to avoid getting MGs/AT guns flanked and stuff. They, at least in theory, have the power to turn open areas into closed areas with proper placement.
This thread aims to investigate why these free passive defenses are not used often, and it comes with a nifty poll. How you'd solve this if you consider this to be a problem, you can mention below.
Passive Defenses
20 Apr 2015, 15:21 PM
#1
Posts: 521
Find out about my redesign of all four factions, with more to come!
Feel free to contact me regarding your Attribute Editor-related questions.
Feel free to contact me regarding your Attribute Editor-related questions.
20 Apr 2015, 15:27 PM
#2
Posts: 657
Wires, Tank Traps, and to a lesser extent Teller/Riegel Mines are rarely seen (because you need a detector to see them kekek) when they were an integral part of WWII battlefields.I remember seeing one of Dane's videos that highlighted a 2v2 where the one soviet player went defensive tactics and made great use of tank traps and barb wire. He essentially made a funnel and directed enemy units straight into his mgs, anti-tank guns etc. I think this was a vid from a month or two ago. Great game to watch. I think proper defensive networks just take too much time, and pull your attention away from the battle too much.
The obvious way to use Wires and Tank Traps is to shut off pathways and that does happen, but I have never seen anyone try and successfully fortrify an open area, or at least cleverly using these to greatly limit enemy movement. You know, using things like this to avoid getting MGs/AT guns flanked and stuff. They, at least in theory, have the power to turn open areas into closed areas with proper placement.
This thread aims to investigate why these free passive defenses are not used often, and it comes with a nifty poll. How you'd solve this if you consider this to be a problem, you can mention below.
20 Apr 2015, 15:43 PM
#3
Posts: 431
A large part of it for me is just how easily destroyed defenses are and how long they take to set up, especially compared to the first game. A ratio of effort expended to fortify vs. destroy, if you will. Sandbags get one-shotted by tanks a lot of the time. Tank traps are only available for USF without doctrines, otherwise I'd tend to use them more.
The second big reason, as I already alluded to, is just that every faction doesn't have all the available defensive options. Ostheer have no sandbags or tank traps, Soviets have no tank traps (at least not in a good doctrine), OKW have sandbags but no tank traps, etc.
But your post does make me wonder. I may have to utilize defensive structures more. I don't tend to get creative with funneling units into kill zones. I think it would be a really interesting way to play. I'll have to experiment with this.
I'd love to see that. I bet it would be interesting; could you provide a link?
The second big reason, as I already alluded to, is just that every faction doesn't have all the available defensive options. Ostheer have no sandbags or tank traps, Soviets have no tank traps (at least not in a good doctrine), OKW have sandbags but no tank traps, etc.
But your post does make me wonder. I may have to utilize defensive structures more. I don't tend to get creative with funneling units into kill zones. I think it would be a really interesting way to play. I'll have to experiment with this.
I remember seeing one of Dane's videos that highlighted a 2v2 where the one soviet player went defensive tactics and made great use of tank traps and barb wire. He essentially made a funnel and directed enemy units straight into his mgs, anti-tank guns etc. I think this was a vid from a month or two ago. Great game to watch. I think proper defensive networks just take too much time, and pull your attention away from the battle too much.
I'd love to see that. I bet it would be interesting; could you provide a link?
20 Apr 2015, 15:51 PM
#4
Posts: 130
Artillery, LMGs, MGs on tanks, etc.
So no mines
So no mines
EZPZLMNSQZ 
20 Apr 2015, 15:52 PM
#5
Posts: 32
Lately in 4v4 games US games, i have pushed with rears while building tank traps for green cover. If you can push far enough, putting tank traps up messes with the enemy vehicle pathing.
20 Apr 2015, 15:53 PM
#6
Posts: 657
A large part of it for me is just how easily destroyed defenses are and how long they take to set up, especially compared to the first game. A ratio of effort expended to fortify vs. destroy, if you will. Sandbags get one-shotted by tanks a lot of the time. Tank traps are only available for USF without doctrines, otherwise I'd tend to use them more.
The second big reason, as I already alluded to, is just that every faction doesn't have all the available defensive options. Ostheer have no sandbags or tank traps, Soviets have no tank traps (at least not in a good doctrine), OKW have sandbags but no tank traps, etc.
But your post does make me wonder. I may have to utilize defensive structures more. I don't tend to get creative with funneling units into kill zones. I think it would be a really interesting way to play. I'll have to experiment with this.
I'd love to see that. I bet it would be interesting; could you provide a link?
Yep here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neEO3NQAqTI
20 Apr 2015, 15:57 PM
#7
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
You should see one of Bears, Spiky, in 4v4. Half of map covered by sandbags, tanktraps, wires, demos, mines etc... Once you let him dig down, you wont take it back.
20 Apr 2015, 15:59 PM
#8
Posts: 431
Thanks, mate! 
20 Apr 2015, 16:31 PM
#9
Posts: 657
You should see one of Bears, Spiky, in 4v4. Half of map covered by sandbags, tanktraps, wires, demos, mines etc... Once you let him dig down, you wont take it back.Quickly becomes a WWI battle with men charging across no mans land.
20 Apr 2015, 16:51 PM
#10
Posts: 627
Demo charges? Use all the time. Similarly enjoy spamming soviet and OKW 30munimine equivalents. Lovely stuff. Sandbags and sandbag walls I also like for green cover fun time.
Tank traps I use a lot less but offer good impromptu green cover for USF and can lock off some early vehicle rushes (go away luchs)
When I do go Ost I very much enjoy enjoy the teller and rigel, though. Set up a flank that looks vulnerable, is still spotted (to avoid embarrassing mine sweeps) and is mined on the approach. Watch the talks yolo in and go boom. Sure, situational, but that's fine.
Barbed wire, though... only as OKW, usually.
Tank traps I use a lot less but offer good impromptu green cover for USF and can lock off some early vehicle rushes (go away luchs)
When I do go Ost I very much enjoy enjoy the teller and rigel, though. Set up a flank that looks vulnerable, is still spotted (to avoid embarrassing mine sweeps) and is mined on the approach. Watch the talks yolo in and go boom. Sure, situational, but that's fine.
Barbed wire, though... only as OKW, usually.
20 Apr 2015, 17:39 PM
#11
Posts: 542
The answer is different for every element of defenses you can build.
I usually have no time to build much barb wires, tank traps, sandbags etc.
I do place OKW mines, but only rarely do I get them to hit the targets I want to hit. When infantry triggers it it is usually a waste, because only 2 models or so get killed. I usually want them to hit tanks. Another risk is that they can be destroyed by indirect fire or may even hit my own tanks when retreating over them. Still, I build them if I can afford them.
Wehrmacht Teller Mines are expensive and because you need your Pioneers to also repair, build tech buildings, build caches etc. I rarely have time for this.
I rarely have luck with S-Mines so I do not really build them. May try them some point again.
Trenches do not seem very useful and I always forget that you can build them. The Flak Emplacement for OKW is simply overpriced junk.
Bunkers I build sometimes, but I place them too late usually, at that time my enemy has often little trouble to counter them.
I usually have no time to build much barb wires, tank traps, sandbags etc.
I do place OKW mines, but only rarely do I get them to hit the targets I want to hit. When infantry triggers it it is usually a waste, because only 2 models or so get killed. I usually want them to hit tanks. Another risk is that they can be destroyed by indirect fire or may even hit my own tanks when retreating over them. Still, I build them if I can afford them.
Wehrmacht Teller Mines are expensive and because you need your Pioneers to also repair, build tech buildings, build caches etc. I rarely have time for this.
I rarely have luck with S-Mines so I do not really build them. May try them some point again.
Trenches do not seem very useful and I always forget that you can build them. The Flak Emplacement for OKW is simply overpriced junk.
Bunkers I build sometimes, but I place them too late usually, at that time my enemy has often little trouble to counter them.
20 Apr 2015, 17:39 PM
#12
1 Posts: 3052 | Subs: 15
Problem with passive defenses is their stupid low health imo
You can destroy an entire system of tank traps in like 20 seconds,when it takes you 3 minutes to set it up to where it'll actually effect anything
You can destroy an entire system of tank traps in like 20 seconds,when it takes you 3 minutes to set it up to where it'll actually effect anything
20 Apr 2015, 17:41 PM
#13
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
Micro.
Either you have it or you don't. Theres always time and place to make use of defenses.
Tellers is a strategic choice. The use of Riegel is limited by it been available only on HTs. I won't choose early on commander as OH and the only viable commander with it is the one with elephant.
PD: the fact that USF has repair crit makes it less appealing also.
Early on you have plenty of time to barbwire cover or block a section of a strategic point.
Cons and Volks can make sandbags or deny cover by making incomplete ones. This also applies to blocking paths.
Tank traps are best used by RE if you want green cover. Tank traps to actually deny tanks are not useful at all.
Either you have it or you don't. Theres always time and place to make use of defenses.
Tellers is a strategic choice. The use of Riegel is limited by it been available only on HTs. I won't choose early on commander as OH and the only viable commander with it is the one with elephant.
PD: the fact that USF has repair crit makes it less appealing also.
Early on you have plenty of time to barbwire cover or block a section of a strategic point.
Cons and Volks can make sandbags or deny cover by making incomplete ones. This also applies to blocking paths.
Tank traps are best used by RE if you want green cover. Tank traps to actually deny tanks are not useful at all.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
20 Apr 2015, 17:50 PM
#14
1 
Posts: 764
Problem with passive defenses is their stupid low health imo
You can destroy an entire system of tank traps in like 20 seconds,when it takes you 3 minutes to set it up to where it'll actually effect anything
Sums it up, but...
...i still voted for "Dunno what's wrong with you I always spam wires and tank traps...", mostly via shift + x while capping, or especially when going for some braindead Sim City OKW play in 3v3+, while singing "Look at my fort, my fort is amazing..."
"Mini wiring" cover is always awesome in 2v2+ (and 1v1s probably too), a bit more "hardcore" is always an option as well, depending on map of course. Shutting down a flank is a nice to have feature, but i don't expect it to last forever, just because "reasons".
My personal favorite is still random placement of tank traps to screw with path finding, or to wire cover (which often doesn't seem to work properly for whatever intended reason).
Another reason why i sometimes don't use passive defenses: the hotkeys are different between factions, and i start to get seriously annoyed by it.
P.S.: about Tellers and other mines... i'm a huge fan of those, so i'm not sure why those are included. One game it wastes your ammo, another it's the decisive factor. That's just how mines work.
20 Apr 2015, 19:02 PM
#15
Posts: 2561
My reason. They are just as likely to help my enemy as they are myself.
20 Apr 2015, 20:00 PM
#16
Posts: 670
the hotkeys are different between factions
You sure you wouldn't like grid key shortcuts? It needs time to get used to it, I know, but once you do, you forget about pressing P with your left hand's thumb
I myself bought 14 OKW factions during a Steam sale last year for alt accounts
20 Apr 2015, 20:02 PM
#17
Posts: 3552 | Subs: 2
"an obstacle not covered by fire is not an obstacle"
People tend to forget this and instead just throw an S-Mine field up to deny a point and then just leave.
All your opponent then needs to do is buy sweepers.
But S-Mines, covered by an MG with armour on call to deal with tanks - different kettle of fish
People tend to forget this and instead just throw an S-Mine field up to deny a point and then just leave.
All your opponent then needs to do is buy sweepers.
But S-Mines, covered by an MG with armour on call to deal with tanks - different kettle of fish
Resident Soviet Whiner and Grand Master Bias Jedi; General Secretary of the Soviet Whine Hydra Collective; Axis Hating Sheeple; Allied Butt Buddy! Collect Them All!
Also the African Branch of TAB Bulletins
PS: The Italian Army fought with courage and skill
Also the African Branch of TAB Bulletins
PS: The Italian Army fought with courage and skill
20 Apr 2015, 20:06 PM
#18
1 Posts: 764
You sure you wouldn't like grid key shortcuts? It needs time to get used to it, I know, but once you do, you forget about pressing P with your left hand's thumb
I DO use grid keys, and that's why i'm annoyed by it.
The layout changes.
20 Apr 2015, 20:07 PM
#19
Posts: 3552 | Subs: 2
I have considered doing an 'Art of Defence" Guide because a lot of people use defences very badly
1) Not building them at all
2) Building too many of them and in the wrong places
3) Leaving and relying on them to stop an enemy cold by themselves
4) Camping behind them
Like going to the North VP on Steppes and camping the munitions whilst building a great wall of wire and sandbags.
You then 4v3 his teammates on the fuel, ignore him and kill him last
1) Not building them at all
2) Building too many of them and in the wrong places
3) Leaving and relying on them to stop an enemy cold by themselves
4) Camping behind them
Like going to the North VP on Steppes and camping the munitions whilst building a great wall of wire and sandbags.
You then 4v3 his teammates on the fuel, ignore him and kill him last
Resident Soviet Whiner and Grand Master Bias Jedi; General Secretary of the Soviet Whine Hydra Collective; Axis Hating Sheeple; Allied Butt Buddy! Collect Them All!
Also the African Branch of TAB Bulletins
PS: The Italian Army fought with courage and skill
Also the African Branch of TAB Bulletins
PS: The Italian Army fought with courage and skill
20 Apr 2015, 20:23 PM
#20
Posts: 670
I DO use grid keys, and that's why i'm annoyed by it.
The layout changes.
Damn m8, I can't say a bad word about grid keys, I think at my noobish levels of play I have those fractions of seconds to look at the status bar
I have considered doing an 'Art of Defence" Guide because a lot of people use defences very badly
1) Not building them at all
2) Building too many of them and in the wrong places
3) Leaving and relying on them to stop an enemy cold by themselves
4) Camping behind them
Like going to the North VP on Steppes and camping the munitions whilst building a great wall of wire and sandbags.
You then 4v3 his teammates on the fuel, ignore him and kill him last
I'd read that
I myself bought 14 OKW factions during a Steam sale last year for alt accounts
1 user is browsing this thread:
1 guest
Livestreams
 |
|
|
985 | ||
|
|
|
|
2 |
Ladders Top 10
-
#Steam AliasWL%Streak
- 1.43063.872+8
- 2.53476.875+6
- 3.303163.650+3
- 4.12644.741-1
- 5.312114.732+8
- 6.289112.721+1
- 7.793452.637+1
- 8.13965.681+7
- 9.14760.710-2
- 10.276160.633+3
Data provided by
Relic Entertainment
Relic Entertainment
Replay highlight
VS
-
cblanco ★ -
보드카 중대
-
VonManteuffel -
Heartless Jäger
Einhoven Country
Honor it
13
Download
1346
Board Info
388 users are online:
388 guests
3 posts in the last 24h
26 posts in the last week
72 posts in the last month
26 posts in the last week
72 posts in the last month
Registered members: 52655
Welcome our newest member, yourcentralfl294
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM
Welcome our newest member, yourcentralfl294
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM