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[Feedback requested] - balancing issues in large team games

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8 Apr 2015, 19:51 PM
#21
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
Axis so easy in 4's

i completed a business call while playing back in the day :snfPeter:
8 Apr 2015, 20:58 PM
#22
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

Axis so easy in 4's

i completed a business call while playing back in the day :snfPeter:


If we are talking AT's both Axis and Allies are piss easy in team games, the issue is randoms.
8 Apr 2015, 21:39 PM
#23
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3

The Problem are not the factions it's the matchmaking, Axis have larger playerbase -> better match ups among team mates, while facing lower ranked allies.

If you play AT there's really no difference in winning.
8 Apr 2015, 21:52 PM
#24
avatar of Cabreza

Posts: 656

Resource caches remain a problem in large team game. The cost doesn't change but the return on investment triples or quadruples depending on the number of players on the field. In a 1v1, for example, a fuel cache provides 5 fuel per minute. In a 4v4 that fuel cache provides the same 5 fuel per minute but to all 4 player for a total of 20 fuel per minute. This makes caches hyper efficient investments in team games and results in these caches being built on every single capture point. Combine this with the fact that larger game modes have more capture points in general and resource income quickly gets out of control. As a result the window for light vehicle play is nearly non-existent and even medium tanks quickly find themselves outclassed. Resource cache income needs to be divided by the number of players in a match (then rounded up) to remain balanced in larger game modes.

Another issue is forward retreat points. Forward reinforcement and healing is fine as all factions have the ability to do it but forward retreat points give a huge advantage to the OKW and US on large maps since it can easily cut retreat times in half and makes it extremely difficult for the opposition to take ground near such a point. A hard retreat should result in a long walk back to the front regardless of faction.
8 Apr 2015, 22:50 PM
#25
avatar of Losttruppen

Posts: 63

I have to agree with IpKai, my biggest issue with these game modes is the disparity of maps. Some are far too large and almost divided into sections, so you end up with several 2v2s or 1v1s until you get to tanks like on city 17.

Distributing resources into more, but lesser points would put more emphasis on supply lines and spread some into less desirable or defensible positions putting a larger percentage of the total resources into contention than what we have now. These large team games are too easy to get a snowball rolling and deny your opponent vital territory after a single error or forced retreat.

Forward HQ and retreat points give serious advantages and can keep one army in the field while the enemy spends close to 5 mins retreating, reinforcing then returning to the lines.

My other gripe is the poor decision to amalgamate 3v3 and 4v4 maps. While similar in scope, I feel these game modes are too different for one-size-fits-all. Steppes, city 17, general mud, hill 331(though I love this map), lanzerath and the like are just far too large for 3 players, especially when it is arbitrarily decided that one player per team will be on the other side of the map by themselves.

Either remove these from the 3v3 rotation or make smaller versions similar to La Gleize
9 Apr 2015, 00:13 AM
#26
avatar of pigsoup
Patrion 14

Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2

two things:

maps and caches.

either make caches only benefittable to the owner or just remove them. maps, well, fix them and many needs more than just a small "fix" that moscow outskirt or minsk pocket got.

9 Apr 2015, 00:43 AM
#27
avatar of $nuffy

Posts: 129


This is more about the balance itself than the large team games, but here's an idea that seems to me - would do much for the balance equilibrium of coh2.

Tbh I was very surprised when I realized that they made the KT non doctrinal unit. I actually like it, since it gives the feeling of complete and well rounded faction to OKW, with which you do not necessary have to choose the spec. doc. to build your early to late (game)play.

and personally I never understood why they didn't build all the other factions that way ?

Give 'main heavy tank' to all factions, and you proly solved the vast majority of balancing problems for the large team games.

So every faction gets to build their non doc. Heavy tank from their HQ, after they do all the teching. just as OKW.

So obviously soviets get IS2, Ostheer gets Tiger I, and USF get Pershing - finally !?

The main problem would be, the redesign of those 'few' Soviet and OstHeer doctrines that are carried by the Tiger and IS2, but it shouldn't be impossible to implement/patch !? Just add another cool ability, or specialized unit in their old spot and we're set.

That would actually deal with many undesirable effects of the gameplay that we're seeing now. every faction would have it's heavy late game contender, and I bet that we would be seeing quite a boom with all those forgotten doctrines, that are seldom used, since majority of players follow the so called meta, of the Call in Tigers and IS2's. Doctrines are supposed to complement play styles with cool abilities, some battle group's (T34/85, PZIV's) and Highly Specialised Vehicles (Elephant, JT, ISU152, Command Tanks etc.) Heavy tank should be an option for every faction, every player, every game.

I am sure that with such mechanic, factions would be far more balanced throughout the game, early to late, and there would be less irrational moves as the latest KT nerf, in the silly attempt to tone down the faction itself.
9 Apr 2015, 01:52 AM
#28
avatar of ilGetUSomDay

Posts: 612

Main issues with large team games (priority in order)

1) resource distribution and sharing is the biggest issue. This is primarily a axis problem due
to only one soviet commander with fuel call in (and free AA with OKW). I know people are tired of nerf axis threads but it is truely unfair for players to synergise up and modify each others incomes and the allies cannot. None of the air drops should be able to be picked up by other players. The reason is that these effects are not linear, they are compounding like medicine side effects (1+1=3). You pass off fuel to the intentionally designed fuel starved faction and they bypass intended draw backs. this is one example but in general passing fuel or munitions to other players to fast lane them into army compositions is simply unfair if the other side cannot replicate.

2) Resources are too high in 4v4 maps. Ipkai shares my exact thoughts.

3) Maps. The problem with large team games is that they do not have the maps to support good play. These spam fests quickly turn into grind lanes where players throw their blobs into fire trying to dislodge their opponents. This could be fixed if 4v4 maps were scaled to the size of a 1v1 on Angoville. Plenty of space for maneuvers, both ranges are supported (It is actually great for more of the important stuff to be in the short ranged side because it is easier to compensate for those disadvantages then it is for say a conscript to make up for its disadvantage against a max range lmg gren)

Beyond that, 1v1 balance will sort of trickle down to large player games, but there is not a whole lot they can do to balance besides stopping single player intended abilities from affecting team mates in an unfair manner.
9 Apr 2015, 04:47 AM
#31
avatar of ThoseDeafMutes

Posts: 1026

To elaborate on the problem of the maps, there was a huge flexibility to scale the size of maps without impacting resources too badly in CoH1 thanks to different sized resource sectors and "empty" strat points that provided no income. Now you have a choice of having a small number of absolutely enormous sectors, or inflating the income potential of both teams with a lot of strat points, all of which give income and can be cached. It's problematic, imo, for the ability of the game to scale up and down in map sizes.

I proposed in another thread that caches should be altered - they should give full resources to you, and half resources to your teammates. At least then, when the map is spammed with caches the resource income won't be quite as ludicrous.
9 Apr 2015, 06:21 AM
#32
avatar of van Voort
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3552 | Subs: 2

Resources in general in team games need looking at.

I would certainly say that OKW should not get benefit from caches because that undermines the core concept of the faction and further this change would have zero effect upon 1v1 balance.

++++++++++++++


I do believe that making caches only work for the owner, or give reduced benefits to the other teammates is a bad idea. It is bad enough playing with teammates who open by building caches rather than units - this would just make it worse; you'd also have people actively attacking - or passively not defending other teammates caches.

It would make play in random teams very straining between people who are on the same side and that's straining enough as it is.


Rather I would either scale them down, so they get the same benefit as in 1v1 but split between as many non-OKW players are in the team, or scale them up so they cost 200 x team members. So a cache in a 4v4 costs 800MP.

++++++++++++++


If resource income remains a problem because of greater map control and points, then reduce base income eg(5M/3F to 4M/2F)


However I don't think that should be necessary, nor indeed desirable - see below:

++++++++++++++


HOWEVER



After saying all that I think people are forgetting that one of the reasons people play 4v4 in the first place is because you can afford all the great stuff that is too expensive to see in 1v1. In theory stretching out the mid game and delaying the late game is superficially attractive; but it might well undermine the reasons people play 4v4.

++++++++++++++


Economy Manipulation:



This is really something only available to the Germans via OKW (Fuel <-> Munitions) and via OKH Munitions Drop and Luftwaffe Supply. 4v4 usually involves a rush to heavy armour and getting an efficient army at pop cap.

At that point, if you can keep things alive, you have MP and FUEL income you cannot use, and either of the OKH abilities allow you to put that to use in a way no other faction can.

Lend Lease lets you do fuel drops, but that is MUN to FUEL and countered by AA, whilst Soviet Industry is basically obsolescent once you have more than a few tanks out


These are hard abilities to balance and should be good, however they could possibly be less efficient.

Fuel to Munitions should be one of:

Less Efficient eg: 50 to 100
Smaller eg: 20 to 60
Longer Cooldown

Supply Drop should be come in from enemy territory like lend lease does so it is actually counterable, because on maps like Lienne Forest it's basically a gigantic "fuck you" to the other team because there is jackshit they can do about it

++++++++++++++


On Map Artillery:



At the moment this is a 600 MP fixed installation counterable by two clicks and some munitions.

This needs to change I have considered options like:

Artillery is mobile
Artillery is more durable to bomb strikes (can be decrewed but takes two to kill)

At the moment though I would do this:

All on map artillery automatically cloaks and camouflages when not firing.


This would open up some skill and counter-play into this:

It is still possible to blindly launch a bomb strike at the location if you can get LOS, but you have to remember where it was

Recon plane then shuts artillery fire down whilst it is up and provides an incentive to get better AAA to shoot it down so you can start shooting again


9 Apr 2015, 15:39 PM
#33
avatar of Napalm

Posts: 1595 | Subs: 2

Good feedback thus far. This won't be a simple solution. What would happen to the game if there was no caches? Slow it down?
9 Apr 2015, 15:43 PM
#34
avatar of voltardark

Posts: 976

What if the cache income would increase with the tech level (tiers 1 to 4) or if it would increase with the command level (command points) ?

Your toughts ?
9 Apr 2015, 15:51 PM
#36
avatar of Napalm

Posts: 1595 | Subs: 2

It would encourage teching, wouldn't it? It would have to be tied to the player least teched up though.
9 Apr 2015, 15:55 PM
#37
avatar of Stafkeh
Patrion 14

Posts: 1006

To be honest, a lot would already be fixed if population cap was linked to territory. Its plain bullshit you have 100 popcap at the start of the game.

Too much infantry spam => No tanks or not much tanks.
9 Apr 2015, 15:58 PM
#38
avatar of Napalm

Posts: 1595 | Subs: 2

I don't think that would make come backs at all possible though. Out numbered and out gunned, etc.
9 Apr 2015, 16:05 PM
#39
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Apr 2015, 15:39 PMNapalm
Good feedback thus far. This won't be a simple solution. What would happen to the game if there was no caches? Slow it down?

When I think about it, it'd probably not help the whole call-in thing.

Right now, people do it because you only got so much fuel, so you save fuel by forgoing teching (and them tending to be superior vehicles doesn't help...).

Without caches, you'll definitely have even less fuel so you'll really want to forgo teching then.

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Apr 2015, 15:58 PMNapalm
I don't think that would make come backs at all possible though. Out numbered and out gunned, etc.

And dealing with reinforcing your units when a sneaky bastard slipped into your lines and neutralized a cutoff was hell. The game's got missteps, but I'm perfectly happy with the popcap one.
9 Apr 2015, 16:09 PM
#40
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10665 | Subs: 9

Troll post invised

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