The Tiger ace

There is a doctrine already with those fixes. Its called Spearhead or Lightning war.
Without those 'Bad design' features TA would never be used again would be switched out for more favorable doctrines.

People used TA back when normal Tiger and TA had the same health.

TWP combo is probably more of a bug since I'm pretty sure Pak's doesn't do that anymore.

Fuel free vehicle is dumb design, plain and simple. Even if the vehicle fortunately isn't powerful to immediately rubberband a lost game, the fuel free cost breaks the established rules of the game far too much. Can you imagine Paras getting a manpower cost increase while their weapon upgrades are free? That's akin to the former, and it would be probably pretty stupid watching BARed Rifles and M1919A6 Paras roll over everything on legs.

Or for a more dramatic example, a commander which causes you to immediately get back 100 VP at 15 CP? Obviously, that would never happen, but nonetheless, doesn't ignoring much of the time spent in the 14 CP beforehand sound incredibly stupid to you?

TWP is what makes TA, TA. If it didn't have it, There would be no reason to get one over a Tiger I. The fuel cost thing is entirely secondary.

And if it was switched to a fuel cost it would actually favor the TA user as you can now afford to build armor to support it and afford infantry reinforce costs as normal.

TA is fine, And has been fine for a while now, But per every patch a new TA thread is made. Circles i tell ya.

TWP is what makes TA, TA. If it didn't have it, There would be no reason to get one over a Tiger I. The fuel cost thing is entirely secondary.

And if it was switched to a fuel cost it would actually favor the TA user as you can now afford to build armor to support it and afford infantry reinforce costs as normal.

TA is fine, And has been fine for a while now, But per every patch a new TA thread is made. Circles i tell ya.

If it didn't have that, it would have Blitzkrieg and still be vet 3, I'd imagine (the joke of course being that it was exactly like that). And I'm not saying to get rid of it, just that the ability to shoot-TWP-shoot for a shitton of shells in short order is a problem and I suspect also a bug.

Yeah, and I'm totally fine with that. Sure, probably improve it - if that's a balance problem after it happens, it can of course just get nerfs later. Keeping it fuel free however, will never fix a big design issue, regardless of whether the unit's power on its own is really fine.

If it didn't have that, it would have Blitzkrieg and still be vet 3, I'd imagine (the joke of course being that it was exactly like that). And I'm not saying to get rid of it, just that the ability to shoot-TWP-shoot for a shitton of shells in short order is a problem and I suspect also a bug.

Yeah, and I'm totally fine with that. Sure, probably improve it - if that's a balance problem after it happens, it can of course just get nerfs later. Keeping it fuel free however, will never fix a big design issue.

All i am hearing is nerfs when the thing is in fact fine.
Its 15 cp you need to prepare for it properly. In the same way that you have to prepare for IS-2
Its literally the last thing that unlocks CP wise. You will have your full commander before he dose.

Regarding TWP when chasing down a Jackson its generally better to lead with TWP as you can stop it and finish it in 3 shots over like 15s.

And again if you run over a mine with TA its done if they can follow up properly. Your sweeping has to be good. It's not a #Yolo tank its something you use with care.

All i am hearing is nerfs when the thing is in fact fine.
Its 15 cp you need to prepare for it properly. In the same way that you have to prepare for IS-2
Its literally the last thing that unlocks CP wise. You will have your full commander before he dose.

Regarding TWP when chasing down a Jackson its generally better to lead with TWP as you can stop it and finish it in 3 shots over like 15s.

And again if you run over a mine with TA its done if they can follow up properly. Your sweeping has to be good. It's not a #Yolo tank its something you use with care.

You seem to think I regard it as a balance issue.

I will re-iterate - my true issue with it is the design issue of costing no initial fuel what so ever, the health being weirdly more than a regular Tiger after it was specifically changed to match a regular Tiger and regular Tigers got another health reduction while the TA was forgotten. The 480 damage from the TWP combo is arguably more a balance issue, but like I said I'm pretty sure it's a bug that it can do that since I'm pretty sure the Pak's version is incapable of the same.

If it's shit after fixing those, then it's underpowered and deserves good buffs, like reducing the cost a ton. Underpowered things to be buffed to become balanced. But clear design issues are never tolerable.

If it's not a balance issue then why fix what ain't broken.
If it got 'Changed' and those changes really just mean nerfs TA
would be in a position were it probably would never get buffed back up to viable status.

-1 Because relic takes forever to do anything.

-2 The whine about the thought of buffing TA would be real.

-1 Because relic takes forever to do anything.

-2 The whine about the thought of buffing TA would be real.

I know.

Chill Your self mate. Look at the stats, look at tourny's. Ostheer is the weakest of the 4 factions and if you wish to contest that then you have invalidated all of your claims. Personally I love Ost and find it a more enjoyable faction thank OKW. That being said the Tiger Ace is neither a draw back to the faction nor a "I Get A Free WIN Card". Your well supported claims are not not well supported for you lack concrete statistical evidence as well as visual proof.
Please tell me what other Call in ability is unlocked at 15cp's? Furthermore the ManPower bleed of Ost is very high for Gren squads are equipped with 4 men compared to 5/6 man squads. Thus, the stats show that the likely hood of a gren model dieing are the exact same percentage of a 5/6man squad. Therefore, would it not be concluded that more Manpower is needed to bring a gren squad up to par to combat with a now 4/5 man allies squad.
Please come back after you have L2P. TA is nothing more than a Vet3 Tiger that hampers the Economy of a Faction that lives and dies on Manpower.

Right oh what stats are you pulling from? oh wait, there are very few statistics that mean anything in this game. Let me break down why:
only accurate statistic values are the game weapons profiles.

Win and loss rates for this game are very skewed for a generic statistical analysis method. The tournaments suggest that OKW and Soviets won the most in the past few tournaments. If you look at the fall out for the star crossed cup Ostheer the few times it was played had huge success.

The reason tournament statistics mean very little in our game is because the small community and the fact that players have to play both sides. The small player base means that there are large skill discrepancies and when taking a survey you'll get large variation. The second point is the most crucial. Players like Jesulin will win with whatever faction they choose because in the lower rounds they have a small chance of fighting an equally skilled opponent. This means whatever flavor of the patch has a much larger impact on the factions choose. People didnt choose US much because it was a huge risk to try and win early on compared to Soviets who have advantages at all stages. Similarly OKW was played because it was OP as fuck.

The most played factions on each side won the most, odd quiescence right?

Anyhow even if all factions were played equally the player base would have a large effect. going back to the example, if Jesulin crushes his way to the top round playing lesser skilled opponents it does not matter what factions were chose. This means that for tournament win rates, any factions chose have a much higher win loss ration based off who is in the tournament rather than a random sample.

You can go to Starcraft II and pick 200 random players and get good results because they fallow a normal curve, the Coh2 tournaments do not.

Enough of the statistics lecture, I would not be able to get any statistics on the tiger ace; that would require me to scroll through the open games, look for if the tiger ace was used, and record the results as well as save the replay for hours and months until I get enough data.
I would get the data, do the analysis, and half of the forums would attack my methods or call it rigged and all that time would be for nothing. You want some statistics? ask yourself this: in a 1v1, what is the statistics of a allies player getting 260 fuel outta nowhere? oh wait, that cant happen.

You should really also consider using paragraphs in your posts

As was addressed earlier, the manpower bleed in the tiger ace doctrine is mitigated by the tank presence. My example is Soviet Industry. That nerfed commander does not stand a chance in the 1v1 pool unless you use your tanks to soak damage so the Manpower reduction does not have as much of an effect. Remember the original Windustry? that is what happens when the trade offs are not sufficient for the gain, which is the tiger ace.

I also do not see the relevance of a tiger ace being 15cp justifying it. the game could go on to 100 cps, and if the players are close in skill the game can go on and on. Both players have to ration their resources accordingly and yet there is this magical tank that can come on the field with little detriment to one player. Its like calling a recon plane, getting it shot down and it crashes with catastrophic effects on your opponent. Little effort put forward, little cost compared to your opponent. In addition 800 manpower is not hard to get to for a "manpower starved faction", you'll be surprised to hear that USF suffers from this much worse in a 1v1 at the later stages of the game.

As Vuther has pointed out this is not a thread about the tank itself, its about the design flow and how a fuel-less tank effects the 1v1 game. In team games its not at all the worst thing ever to deal with, but its dreadful in a 1v1 that lasts long enough. From your posts it seems you have no experience in a 1v1, I implore you to try some with it, you'll find its saving grace pretty amazing when you're being outplayed

Relic made this tank to be no more than a vet 3 Tiger with a higher vew range and a pineaple camo, it comes at 15 CP, it settles income penalties for the owning faction and now you want a fuel price for it?
I'm sorry, but I am simply astonished.
I am trying real hard to be constructive here and not say anything else. So this is my single post on this thread: if you want a fuel cost for it, you better ask for it to come sooner than after game is over and wait to see if you received a war spoil box.

i wonder if the pak TWP bug also works with vehicles... a lot harder to setup though.

Relic made this tank to be no more than a vet 3 Tiger with a higher vew range and a pineaple camo, it comes at 15 CP, it settles income penalties for the owning faction and now you want a fuel price for it?
I'm sorry, but I am simply astonished.
I am trying real hard to be constructive here and not say anything else. So this is my single post on this thread: if you want a fuel cost for it, you better ask for it to come sooner than after game is over and wait to see if you received a war spoil box.

Thanks to TWP and smoke as well as higher health it is quite a bit more then just vet3 Tiger with better view range.

TA won't even struggle against IS-2 when normal tiger will.

Ironically the high MP cost made it much more expensive than adding a high fuel cost ever could. Ostheer is almost never hurting for fuel, what it does hurt a lot for is MP.

If you priced it as just a more expensive Tiger at a lower CP you would see it far, far more often.

In larger games, yes OST doesn't hurt for fuel. In 1v1 which this guy is mainly talking about I can tell you that OST need all the fuel they can get for that painful teching and due to the fact that 1v1 vs. USF (less so now since the patch) OST can struggle to hold many points. So in 1v1 you will be hurting for fuel, especially if you are using vet troops ability as well as getting in T3 vehicles.

Right oh what stats are you pulling from? oh wait, there are very few statistics that mean anything in this game. Let me break down why:
only accurate statistic values are the game weapons profiles.

Win and loss rates for this game are very skewed for a generic statistical analysis method. The tournaments suggest that OKW and Soviets won the most in the past few tournaments. If you look at the fall out for the star crossed cup Ostheer the few times it was played had huge success.

The reason tournament statistics mean very little in our game is because the small community and the fact that players have to play both sides. The small player base means that there are large skill discrepancies and when taking a survey you'll get large variation. The second point is the most crucial. Players like Jesulin will win with whatever faction they choose because in the lower rounds they have a small chance of fighting an equally skilled opponent. This means whatever flavor of the patch has a much larger impact on the factions choose. People didnt choose US much because it was a huge risk to try and win early on compared to Soviets who have advantages at all stages. Similarly OKW was played because it was OP as fuck.

The most played factions on each side won the most, odd quiescence right?

Anyhow even if all factions were played equally the player base would have a large effect. going back to the example, if Jesulin crushes his way to the top round playing lesser skilled opponents it does not matter what factions were chose. This means that for tournament win rates, any factions chose have a much higher win loss ration based off who is in the tournament rather than a random sample.

You can go to Starcraft II and pick 200 random players and get good results because they fallow a normal curve, the Coh2 tournaments do not.

Enough of the statistics lecture, I would not be able to get any statistics on the tiger ace; that would require me to scroll through the open games, look for if the tiger ace was used, and record the results as well as save the replay for hours and months until I get enough data.
I would get the data, do the analysis, and half of the forums would attack my methods or call it rigged and all that time would be for nothing. You want some statistics? ask yourself this: in a 1v1, what is the statistics of a allies player getting 260 fuel outta nowhere? oh wait, that cant happen.

You should really also consider using paragraphs in your posts

As was addressed earlier, the manpower bleed in the tiger ace doctrine is mitigated by the tank presence. My example is Soviet Industry. That nerfed commander does not stand a chance in the 1v1 pool unless you use your tanks to soak damage so the Manpower reduction does not have as much of an effect. Remember the original Windustry? that is what happens when the trade offs are not sufficient for the gain, which is the tiger ace.

I also do not see the relevance of a tiger ace being 15cp justifying it. the game could go on to 100 cps, and if the players are close in skill the game can go on and on. Both players have to ration their resources accordingly and yet there is this magical tank that can come on the field with little detriment to one player. Its like calling a recon plane, getting it shot down and it crashes with catastrophic effects on your opponent. Little effort put forward, little cost compared to your opponent. In addition 800 manpower is not hard to get to for a "manpower starved faction", you'll be surprised to hear that USF suffers from this much worse in a 1v1 at the later stages of the game.

As Vuther has pointed out this is not a thread about the tank itself, its about the design flow and how a fuel-less tank effects the 1v1 game. In team games its not at all the worst thing ever to deal with, but its dreadful in a 1v1 that lasts long enough. From your posts it seems you have no experience in a 1v1, I implore you to try some with it, you'll find its saving grace pretty amazing when you're being outplayed

Actually there are more stats than just weapons stats if you actually were computer literate and knew how to dig in the coh2 files. EDIT: for the faint of heart and those whom dont know their way around game files - http://www.coh2-stats.com -

And 1v1? I did play quite a bit in the beging, during alpha/beta testing, and then the beta/launch of wfa. I have not played much 1v1 since then as I find 2v2 more enjoyable. And tbh TA Commander in a 1v1 is rare on the premise it hurts ost signifcanlty and disallows for many gameplay options.

If you wish to not belive any of this and instead advance your own disalusioned agenda, be my guest for for Relic could careless about your ideals. They have already proven that about this community so why, in essance, would you continue to cry and moan? If its such a big deal to you develop your own mod mate and make it how you want, better yet build your own game. :

Unless he charges in and wins immediately with it, its gonna cost him a lot more then 900mp.


Your argument that it doesn't have a trade off makes no sense tbh, it costs 900mp which is quite a lot (all be it very cheap for what you get), is pretty much your entire doctrine pickup (g43s and vet can be nice but its not exactly mind blowing), and it almost completely disables your income.