CAS needs adjusted

From a heavy allies player standpoint, PTRS could use adjustment for the cons squad but not for the gaurds.

Plz stay on topic and talk about CAS balance or ways to make it counterable instead of bringing in another topic

So CAS cant get any adjustments? I am pointing out hypocrisies and thanks for your approval.

Reduce AOE output, and reduce damage of the AT strafe. Increase cool down on the fuel transfer and possible decrease the resource conversion.

Adjust AA so it can shoot at planes around the map, currently the USF HT cant shoot due to shot blockers making countering hard.

Increase Cool downs across the board or adjust their output

aka kill CAS just because some people cannot deal with it. GG.
I'll prepare 2 wishlists fosr COH2 too. One for the period of time playing Axis and one for the period of time playing Allied. What matters they will be totally contradictious, I'll clame every time that in fact I want balance.

Can't believe you guys. Every new discovered and efficient tactics or strategy must be killed because there is to "OP", "no skill involved", "it hurts my but to bad when in fact I deserve to win...MOM!"

I really dont get the Logic showing in this thread. Super fast Arty strikes that can whipe units is BAD. B4 Strikes hitting and whiping are BAD (I mean you can hear the shot just move your blob). ISU one shotting everything is BAD.

Quickest off map that can one shot tanks? Perfectly fine L2P. I mean if thats not hypocritical to the direction this game has been heading sense launch I really dont know what is.

Just boggles my mind. P47 cannot one shot a 640HP tank in one pass and costs more and cannot be payed for with a fuel investment. It too can be dodged. I mean anything CAN be dodged but the penalities for lacking to do so seem to be skewed...

Edit: And we all know input lag and 10 second freezes NEVER HAPPEN!

The strafes in this doctrine shouldn't be usable in the enemy's base. The most popular abuse strat with this commander is:

Force retreat of valuable units i.e. snipers, 120mm mortars etc. then:

Recon over base + AI strafe + stuka bomb all pinned infantry. Lame and just wrong.

Reduce AOE output, and reduce damage of the AT strafe. Increase cool down on the fuel transfer and possible decrease the resource conversion.

Adjust AA so it can shoot at planes around the map, currently the USF HT cant shoot due to shot blockers making countering hard.

Increase Cool downs across the board or adjust their output

Astounding!

You're asking for 6 nerfs! Basically you proposed to nerf the doctrine across the board in damage, AOE, time, abilities cooldown and costs (strafes that can already miss might I add), while buffing the counters. You can't have it both ways.

This proposition is unreasonable. When one just needs to work on his micro, blob less and pay more attention to one's units, and lastly adapt against the CAS strat.

This type thinking is what ended over nerfing counterattack. Let's nerf the B4 and for the motherland knowing it can be hard countered by CAS or Jaeger armour. This is a textbook example of overreacting and giving in to the whine.

CAS is powerfull: true, I described the usage of it in heavily unfavourable matchup (vs USF) in 1v1 some time ago. But the fact it is one of 2 doctrines that actually let you compete with usf isn't enough to call for the nerf. Mainly because there is another fact:
CAS is beatable, it couses the problems as it needs some changes and adjustment to meta play but is for sure beatable, with 10 minute sherman being only one on hard counter list.

From team games perspective it is also very powerfull but not so much after nerfs to okw (especially KT) and I also belive that elephant doctrines work better.

because it takes maybe 30% of their health?

I wasn't asking for nerfs just saying optyions. I don't want it to become useless. Just make it fair

So? Yes, its powerful, but its easy to dodge and has ample warning time, there is opportunity for counterplay, very much unlike ie. a B4 shot. If anything needs to be looked at, its the loiter Stuka gun run.
CAS abilities are perfectly fine, they really are. If you are facing CAS you need to adjust your playstyle radically in order to succeed, but its far from an OP doctrine.

in the first video the shots hit ~~4 seconds after the first flare and ~~3 seconds after in the second. assuming nothing fucks up the pathing that's *just* enough time to dodge, also assuming the side aoe isn't really big. if the vehicle has engine damage, is in a narrow section (like a bridge), or the pathing decides it's time to do a 360 you will not dodge it. the first situation i would consider arguable; the second and third i do not.

the scotts were a poor choice of tank for the second video though; shermans would have been much better as they have twice as much health.

the scotts were a poor choice of tank for the second video though; shermans would have been much better as they have twice as much health.

ur right.

i just got lazy...

in the first video the shots hit ~~4 seconds after the first flare and ~~3 seconds after in the second. assuming nothing fucks up the pathing that's *just* enough time to dodge, also assuming the side aoe isn't really big. if the vehicle has engine damage, is in a narrow section (like a bridge), or the pathing decides it's time to do a 360 you will not dodge it. the first situation i would consider arguable; the second and third i do not.

the scotts were a poor choice of tank for the second video though; shermans would have been much better as they have twice as much health.

Langreskaya is a 1v1 map. Yeah it's tiny, expect a fast strafe. On a 1v1, if an Ostheer player goes for CAS, you can truly punish him for doing so. Also if your tank has engine damage, the CAS player invested either 30+110 munitions or 50+110 munitions, that tank deserves to die.

Curious how people omit the fact that if the JU-87 Anti-tank strafe hits multiple tanks, it won't kill them as the damage spreads amongst several tanks. Similarly, if you dodge it a bit late, you can still avoid half of the flak fire, and save your tank, albeit it will be heavily damaged. The AT strafe will only reliably destroy tanks if the majority of the strafe's rounds connect.

that fast strafe near map edges is part of what breaks it.

140 or 160 munitions is worth a LOT less than even a t-34/76. the AT strafe is a hard counter though; that's why i think it's arguable.

not having a full health tank die from a single pass if fine if the tank has full health and he doesn't have anything else around to capitalize on the damage. otherwise the tank is dead anyway.

the damage spread is a bit silly sometimes. i don't know if it's still the case but it used to be that you couldn't kill 2 katys, one would always have 10 hp left.

"just dodge" is terrible advice. On maps like Rails and metal, its 2,5-3secs since first red flare.

Is it enough to dodge? Yes but only if you see this first flare. During battle, when you for example putting Rifles behind cover, its almost impossible. You need 1 sec to match unit/click hotkey and another 1sec to reverse. Its fine when you see flare. Its not fine when you see flares with 1 sec delay.

On the other hand, railway-artillery needs 10secs (?) and cas needs 3secs. Its bad design if one off map is useless and second sometimes is undodgeable.

And try to escape with ambulance

So? Yes, its powerful, but its easy to dodge and has ample warning time, there is opportunity for counterplay, very much unlike ie. a B4 shot. If anything needs to be looked at, its the loiter Stuka gun run.
CAS abilities are perfectly fine, they really are. If you are facing CAS you need to adjust your playstyle radically in order to succeed, but its far from an OP doctrine.

5 Seconds. Go watch that video again. Ample eh? I want a 5 second off map arty. Thats all I ask. Since 5 seconds in ample it should be plenty of time to dodge and "Counter it"

5 Seconds. Go watch that video again. Ample eh? I want a 5 second off map arty. Thats all I ask. Since 5 seconds in ample it should be plenty of time to dodge and "Counter it"

5 seconds plus an acoustic warning is fine for an expensive ability that has a very narrow area of effect and only works on vehicles. Literally all you need to do is drive 3 meters forward and nothing is gonna happen. I get this ability used against me alot, I am not sure I've ever actually lost a vehicle to it, not even when it was engine damaged, while I sure lost a shitton of vehicles to loiter Stuka and P-47s even when immediately reacting and reversing. No offence man, but if your micro is semi-decent, the CAS stuff pretty much is a non issue.

Take the videos with a grain of salt guys.

bare in mid AA HT hard counters this doc

Also bare in mind the map and its size

in the first and second video u can see that the srafe began firing even before it wwas inside the map..

5 seconds plus an acoustic warning is fine for an expensive ability that has a very narrow area of effect and only works on vehicles. Literally all you need to do is drive 3 meters forward and nothing is gonna happen. I get this ability used against me alot, I am not sure I've ever actually lost a vehicle to it, not even when it was engine damaged, while I sure lost a shitton of vehicles to loiter Stuka and P-47s even when immediately reacting and reversing. No offence man, but if your micro is semi-decent, the CAS stuff pretty much a non issue.

I dont have an issue with it if I am paying attention or have 0 input lag but its a matter of Good for the Goose is good for the Gander. If Allies cannot have an ability with "Plenty" of warning that whipes things out denying an entire unit at the push of the button I am not getting why this ability is fine.

10 Seconds is the fastest hitting offmap artillery that also has an audible warning and smoke. And thats considered powerful.

The AT strafe will also damage any support weapons that are in the area in which it is called it. Its not the P47 it will chew through anything that happens to be where the tank is that you called it on.

Again I go back to if the goal is to allow counterplay and eliminate so many squad whipes then why is the single pass strafe still a thing?

Originally when it was released if you recall it COULD NOT one hit a tank but do maybe 50% damage to it. It was used to finish it off. Not just take it out on its own Merit.

TLDR I see it as hypocritical to allow a one hit super fast hitting AT strafe when there are other abilities that cost more, take longer to come down, and longer to do their damage i.e. you need to sit for its full duration. If this is considered balanced in fine GREAT lets boost all other offmaps too! Otherwise lets make its timing more reasonable or its damage less.

A few things: First off, the Allies have plenty of offmap that is as potent or has more ingame utility than the CAS Stuka: IR arty, flame arty, etc., heck, I'd rate the Sthurmovik strike higher... plus clearly more powerful onmap from heavy mortars to SPGs and of course the B4. Not to mention the CAS Stuka is not exactly cheap for effect, especially in comparison to its brethren the loiter Stuka/P-47. I am really not sure invoking the goose/gander thing is gonna do your argument any favour in the realm of indirect fire, seeing as OH has no really useful indirect fire unit besides the mortar to begin with.

The AT strafe is still a thing because most people (I guess) would agree its not actually overly powerful. If you are not paying attention it is punishing, but it comes at considerable cost and is counterable.
In the end we might just agree to disagree, although I'll repeat, CAS stuka would be at the very end of my priorities, the strength of this doctrine - and real reason to pick it - is in redistribute resources, which allows you to turn the late early-midgame engagements on the head at the expense of tech.

A few things: First off, the Allies have plenty of offmap that is as potent or has more ingame utility than the CAS Stuka: IR arty, flame arty, etc., heck, I'd rate the Sthurmovik strike higher... plus clearly more powerful onmap from heavy mortars to SPGs and of course the B4. Not to mention the CAS Stuka is not exactly cheap for effect, especially in comparison to its brethren the loiter Stuka/P-47. I am really not sure invoking the goose/gander thing is gonna do your argument any favour in the realm of indirect fire, seeing as OH has no really useful indirect fire unit besides the mortar to begin with.

The AT strafe is still a thing because most people (I guess) would agree its not actually overly powerful. If you are not paying attention it is punishing, but it comes at considerable cost and is counterable.
In the end we might just agree to disagree, although I'll repeat, CAS stuka would be at the very end of my priorities, the strength of this doctrine - and real reason to pick it - is in redistribute resources, which allows you to turn the late early-midgame engagements on the head at the expense of tech.

I agree with it not being the strength of the doctrine as well. But we will have to disagree on the former I suppose. I am not a fan of reactive balancing as the Relic team seems to do (i.e. wait for something to be called OP and checked based off of usage statistics rather then having some sort of quantitative design in the first place) .