I have a crazy story and I need your help

Hey Ami,

in the third picture you can see he has a "band" stitched around his left sleeve. Those were only given to elite divisions such as SS or Grossdeutschland and had the division name embroidered on them. If we could only see it with more detail =/. Anyways hope this helps

This is kind of interesting, it reminds me of the amount of missing or presumed dead soldiers Germany had during World War 2. The missing to dead ratio for Germany was really high during the war, especially after 1944-1945. The Germans classified a lot of soldiers as missing even though many of them were captured and only released years after the war.

When Overmans (the latest researcher that estimated German war deaths ) did his calculations on German war casualties. He estimated 5.3 million deaths but a large percent are "presumed dead" not actually dead. Out of the 5.3 million, about 2 million of them are classified as missing and presumed dead. If you look at the dead/missing for any other army, you would see that the percentage is way out of proportion. It gets me thinking about how many Germans actually died in the war is since Overmans estimaton is flawed. There were probably hundreds of thousands German soldiers pronounced as missing and presumed dead even though many are alive and It's not like they would be pronounced "Not Dead." after it's discovered they're alive.

I just thought I'd share this since I researched a bit about World War 2 casualties a while ago.

Cuff Titles that's what the sleeve bands are called.

From wikipedia but seems reliable enough

"In the Army, Air force, or Navy, the unit cuff title was worn on the right arm. In the SS, the cuff title was worn on the left arm. All campaign cuff titles were worn on the left arm. For example, someone who was in the army and fought in North Africa and later transferred to Grossdeutschland had an "Afrika" campaign cuff title on their left arm and their Grossdeutschland cuff title on their right arm (General Manteuffel's leather coat was an anomaly to this rule). An SS soldier who fought in Crete as a paratrooper and later joined 2nd SS Division Das Reich would have both of his cuff titles on the left arm. In this case one would usually see the unit cuff title placed below the campaign cuff title because the chances are that the individual received his jacket with his unit cuff title beforehand and then had his campaign cuff title affixed after the fact, but this was not always the case."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuff_title

Hey Ami,

in the third picture you can see he has a "band" stitched around his left sleeve. Those were only given to elite divisions such as SS or Grossdeutschland and had the division name embroidered on them. If we could only see it with more detail =/. Anyways hope this helps

While yes that seems to be a Cuff Title, toward the end of the war Cuff titles would not mean he was attached to that unit. For example there is a grossdeutschland divison but also a grossdeutschland panzergrenadier detachement that operated as a fire brigrade. Also an issue is that he was attached to said elite unit but upon being wounded he would have been sent to a replacement company and as an officer then distributed wherever a shortage of officers may have been. During the later part of the war documents were not well kept in regards to ad hoc units that were in high supply. Then again theres the chance we can get lucky and he stayed in the same unit from traing/that picture to his time of capture. Good Catch with the cuff title, if we can distiguish his shoulder and collar tabs we can formulate a better guess as to his specific roll

EDIT: After doing some digging in my books the "cuff title" would not reference a Heer divison on the premise elite divisions wore it on the right arm unlike the SS whom wore it on the left. Furthermore his shoulder tabs would reflect an elite division with signature latin script upon them. Therefore I do not know what his left sleeve distiguishes.

Hi Ami,

This is a very moving story and reminded me of a story I recently learned about my own grandfather. He died a few years ago and we only learned this after his death.

When Germany invaded the Soviet Union in 1941 my grandfather was 13 years old living with his family in Ukraine. As you may know, the German forces captured and seized many Russians, Ukrainians and other people living in the occupied territories and sent them back to Germany as slave labourers.

It turns out that my grandfather was one of the slave labourers shipped to Germany in this way. When the Soviet army liberated the part of Germany where he was kept he was extremely lucky to meet an officer who told him he should not go back to the USSR straight away under any circumstances - at that time, Stalin considered anyone who had been taken prisoner a traitor and most of these people were sent straight to the Gulag and never seen again.

The solution they found was to enlist my grandfather into the Red Army but as he was too young they actually had to forge him papers that that made him a year older than he actually was. In this way he was able to make it back home as a liberating, triumphant soldier and not a traitor.

To me, there are 2 shocking parts of the story which show the horrors of what the Soviet Union really was:

1. My grandfather never told anyone about this except his wife such was his fear of the consequences. It was only after his death (in 2007!) that my grandmother told me this story. Can you imagine how fearful someone would have to be to not even want to talk about it 15 years after the collapse of the country in which it happened?

2. According to my grandmother, my grandfather did not tell her much about his time in Germany. The only comment he made was to say that he was "fed very well". Imagine that, a slave labourer fed better in Germany than a free man in Soviet Ukraine?

My other family story about the war is my great-grandfather from the other side of the family: he was the commander of a 45mm anti-tank gun which was known among the soldiers as "Смерть врагу, пиздец расчету" (which translates loosely as "Death to the enemy and worse to the crew") such was the casualty rate and vulnerability of the people who operated this weapon. He fought in the Finnish campaign and went MIA fighting against the Wehrmacht in 1942.

Some great posts. Good to read your stories, Neo, and thx IronKnee and DoomTurtle for the info about the cuff titles. I'll look through all of my photos and see if any of them show them in better detail. All of the pictures that I have are tiny and show very little detail. Those two that I posted are probably the best that I have of Kurt in uniform.

Some great posts. Good to read your stories, Neo, and thx IronKnee and DoomTurtle for the info about the cuff titles. I'll look through all of my photos and see if any of them show them in better detail. All of the pictures that I have are tiny and show very little detail. Those two that I posted are probably the best that I have of Kurt in uniform.

Alrighty, His shoulder and collar tabs would tell hus alot too. Tobad its not in color cuz those tabs would distinguish the type of unit (ie artillary, engineers). If we figure out his unit id be happy to build out a timeline of known battles and places in which they partook for a german historian back in the 80's built out an encyclopedia of all known units and constructed a timetable of events for as many as he could find documentation for.

Haha, i am actually writing my Bachelor right now with focus on german soldiers. I am spending a lot of time in Archives lately, finding out about soldiers.
I will give you a few tips in a day or two, since i am a little busy
What things do you want to know the most? His family, or what he did in the war?
One of the most important things i have found while studying German WW2 Soldiers is their remains. Most of the stuff that is usefull, is actually found in their Homes. Your story says that his wife was upset about you, but maybe she had some kids who would be willing to help. Look at what he left. I got my hands on a Soldiers detailed story about what he did in the war through exactly such luck. Some letters he had sent to a friend, which after a long Hunt were obtained in an old box at his grandchildrens place.

I would still like to see what was in that box. I'm wondering if it got passed down, and to whom. I don't think Kurt had any other descendants other than my mom and myself, but I think he had step-children from his two other wives. How could I go about finding this stuff?

First, you need to obtain a copy of the probate (Erbschein) to your grandfather's estate. I assume it is treated as a document of public record in Germany and obtainable, upon payment of a fee to the court covering the district where he died (Amtsgericht)

http://www.crosschannellawyers.co.uk/basics-of-german-inheritance-law/

It will look something like this. I do not know if you can obtain a copy of the Will, but I would assume so. I also do not know if you can apply by post (as you can in England)

http://www.crosschannellawyers.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Sample-German-Grant-of-Probate-Erbschein.pdf

If he left no Will, then the law of intestacy kicks in

http://www.crosschannellawyers.co.uk/intestacy-rules-in-germany/

(If your Mother was adopted, then I doubt if she would have any rights of inheritance under an intestacy, but that is my supposition)

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I am guessing that the box first went to his third wife, either under the will or intestacy . If she has passed away, you may need to consider applying for her Erbschein also.

Essentially, you should hopefully finish with a set of addresses, for those who you need to approach, to ask to view.

Awa may hopefully correct anything I have got wrong.

This is exactly the stuff I'm interested in and thank you all very kindly for the great info. Once my mom gets back to me with his birth and death dates, I will proceed along some of the mentioned avenues. I really do hope that his stuff got passed down to somebody and that some day I could see it. I'd make it clear to them that I have no interest in money or property. I'd just like to gain information, see/copy photos, and learn more about him and his stories.

I learned enough info today to submit a "Tracing request - private matters/ research" at the Deutsche Dienstelle. I'll post again when I hear back. Wish me luck!

Good luck!

Your relation is an NCO that wears the Iron Cross and other badges so it's safe to assume that he was not a baker.

What stands out to me the most is his cuffband. Very few units had it, and the most famous one was the elite division Großdeutschland.


Feldherrnhalle, Brandenburg, Fuhrer-Grenadier, Fuhrer-Begleit were the other major units that wore them.

Both GD and Feldherrnhalle were in extremely heavy combat in the East circa 1944-1945. My guess given the cuff placement is 'FH'.

Fuhrer-Grenadier and Fuhrer-Begleit fought in the East in 1944 and then in the Battle of the Bulge. Then they were relocated East in 1945.

As far as I know, the GD had their own shoulder boards. There were also small, miscellaneous obscure units that had them for no reason other than formality or symbolism- the chances of him being a member of for instance, Adolf Hitler's 'List' regiment is unlikely compared to something much bigger, like the Panzerkorps GD.

Feldherrnhalle wore their cuffs on their left arm. GD wore them on the right.

Alrighty, His shoulder and collar tabs would tell hus alot too. Tobad its not in color cuz those tabs would distinguish the type of unit (ie artillary, engineers). If we figure out his unit id be happy to build out a timeline of known battles and places in which they partook for a german historian back in the 80's built out an encyclopedia of all known units and constructed a timetable of events for as many as he could find documentation for.