Real Talk: Panther

In the same way Obersoldaten are not unbeatable infantry. They come pretty close and do too well for their cost compared to comparable units.

The thing is, Obers do to much DPS over to high a range and out preform it's counters in the form of MG's. The Panther doesn't out preform AT guns.

In the same way Obersoldaten are not unbeatable infantry. They come pretty close and do too well for their cost compared to comparable units.

Sounds like someone lost a game to obers and a panther. Get out the scroll gents, time to write an incoherent rant!

The thing is, Obers do to much DPS over to high a range and out preform it's counters in the form of MG's. The Panther doesn't out preform AT guns.

AT guns are not viable AT on their own. They are easily decrewed.

Sounds like someone lost a game to obers and a panther. Get out the scroll gents, time to write an incoherent rant!

Not really, I kinda don't bother anymore. Hard to lose to Panthers when you're playing Axis don't you think? And what's incoherent about any of what I said? You must have the attention span of a pigeon if any of what I said confused you.

AT guns are not viable AT on their own. They are easily decrewed.



Not really, I kinda don't bother anymore. Hard to lose to Panthers when you're playing Axis don't you think? And what's incoherent about any of what I said? You must have the attention span of a pigeon if any of what I said confused you.

Not by the Panther, a Ober squad can sometimes decrew a MG squad without any effort. Panthers are not going to decrew your AT guns unless your blind and sit the AT gun next to the Panthers MG's.

A Panther is a Tank Hunter, it preforms poorly versus infantry. Shocks + Cons + ZiS = sad day for Panther spammer.

Not by the Panther, a Ober squad can sometimes decrew a MG squad without any effort. Panthers are not going to decrew your AT guns unless your blind and sit the AT gun next to the Panthers MG's.

A Panther is a Tank Hunter, it preforms poorly versus infantry. Shocks + Cons + ZiS = sad day for Panther spammer.

Who said anything about Panther spams? It's true however that Panther is the only tank you need; your infantry are good enough to hold their own and Panther cost effectively creams any tank out there. Including IS-2 cost per cost. It may be a tank hunter, but it doesn't change that it's the best tank hunter in every way.

The SU-85 does the exact same damage as the Panther, 160. And the Jackson does 240, which is 66% more than the Panthers.

The Panther is not some unbeatable tank, the ZiS gun has over a 50% chance to pen, the SU-85 has over a 50% chance to pen.

Christ on a cracker talk about exaggeration.

Just a correction, the Jackson has 50% more damage, not 66%.

The SU-85 does the exact same damage as the Panther, 160. And the Jackson does 240, which is 66% more than the Panthers.

The Panther is not some unbeatable tank, the ZiS gun has over a 50% chance to pen, the SU-85 has over a 50% chance to pen.

Christ on a cracker talk about exaggeration.

Do you know what DPS means?

Just as a reminder it means Damage Per Second.

SU85 37-19
Jackson 32-23
Panther 21-15
JP4 32-25

Pak40 32-26

Just a correction, the Jackson has 50% more damage, not 66%.

If we are comparing with 240 to 160 it's 66%, but 160 to 240 it's 50%

but it doesn't change that it's the best tank hunter in every way.

Maybe, uh, and I'm just talking a shot in the dark here...maybe that's because it's the only Tank Hunter in the game.

Do you know what DPS means?

Just as a reminder it means Damage Per Second.

SU85 37-19
Jackson 32-23
Panther 21-15
JP4 32-25

Pak40 32-26

Yes, the Panther has less DPS, which was exactly my point. It's good for facing off against single tanks and being used defensively, but it ain't no Assault Gun or Tiger when it comes to pushing enemy fortified positions.

I think you bring up good points, and if the leaked patch data has any truth to it, Relic is also aware of the Panther's over-efficiency.

In my opinion, that last armor buff it got was excessive and allows the Panther to overstep its boundaries without being punished for it.

That being said, I currently see the panther as a problem for the USF vs OKW match-up only. I don't think it overperforms with any Soviet match-up because they have the tools to handle heavy tanks in readily available mines and decent support AT.

USF mines, although much more potent, are secluded behind the M20 and their At-guns will not reliably penetrate most of the time. One Jackson might deter the Panther but you will need 2 to give chase and get the kill. That implies a significant investment and a huge gap in the anti-infantry department. That leaves P47s as the most reliable armor counter but I think everyone can agree it's a serious design issue.

Yes, the Panther has less DPS, which was exactly my point. It's good for facing off against single tanks and being used defensively, but it ain't no Assault Gun or Tiger when it comes to pushing enemy fortified positions.

Which is where its buff should have been not its armor.

Because right now you need to cut the Jacksons Effective DPS in half against the Panthers frontal armor where the Panther is 100% DPS against the Jackson. Making that matchup very lopsided.

Which is where its buff should have been not its armor.

Because right now you need to cut the Jacksons Effective DPS in half against the Panthers frontal armor where the Panther is 100% DPS against the Jackson. Making that matchup very lopsided.

Except the Panther shouldn't be hitting your Jacksons, letting a Tank Hunter get at you TD's is like letting the wolf get at your sheep.

You have AT guns, rifle nades, and fast moving tanks for a reason. If he overextends to chase you then punish him.

Not to mention 1 hit from the Jackson chops a large amount of health off the Panther, making it very potent.

Except the Panther shouldn't be hitting your Jacksons, letting a Tank Hunter get at you TD's is like letting the wolf get at your sheep.

You have AT guns, rifle nades, and fast moving tanks for a reason. If he overextends to chase you then punish him.

Not to mention 1 hit from the Jackson chops a large amount of health off the Panther, making it very potent.

10 extra range is map dependant. The Panther is faster. It should be more like if you have a Panther you shouldnt be allowing the Jackson to use that measly extra 10 range against you.

I have ATGs eh? So I went Captain and REALLY fucked my fuel? Or should I only ever use Airborne? The reality is there are alot more Jacksons going down to Panthers then Panthers to Jacksons post Armor buff.

In the same way Obersoldaten are not unbeatable infantry. They come pretty close and do too well for their cost compared to comparable units.

Im more afraid on Obers than Panther.

I mean, Obers are best infantry. No other can stand agasint them, unless you surprise them with Shocks/Paras around the corner but that's unlikely.
Vetted Obers with STGs are just unstoppable. Best unit in game.

Vet 3 Shocks? Vet 3 Paras? That's cute

Panther vetted or not still has its counters. SU or Jackson can keep Panther at distance, IS2 can run over it, ISU can snipe it.

Panther is fine. It's blitz and smoke which make it perfect instead of fine.

Im more afraid on Obers than Panther.

I mean, Obers are best infantry. No other can stand agasint them, unless you surprise them with Shocks/Paras around the corner but that's unlikely.
Vetted Obers with STGs are just unstoppable. Best unit in game.

Vet 3 Shocks? Vet 3 Paras? That's cute

Panther vetted or not still has its counters. SU or Jackson can keep Panther at distance, IS2 can run over it, ISU can snipe it.

Panther is fine. It's blitz and smoke which make it perfect instead of fine.

Still trying to understand how I can use any of this in a 1v1 as USF....

Again if you arent chasing down and killing the Light tank that is the Jackson with the Panther every chance you get thats your mistake. For ultimate LOL include Obers to insta whipe any ATGs if the USF player went AB or Captain...since yknow they come in the same building.

A lot of people fail to take into account that if the Panther is nerfed, and it stops being built. What exactly do we have left?

The PIV still cannot operate effectively anymore with the Jackson on the field and Zook spam, the Panther for Ost is gated behind large teching costs.

And for OKW, the Panther is all that they have to counter large amounts of medium armor, shreks are still only carried by fragile and crushable infantry, and the JPIV isn't mobile enough to provide support.

The Panther becoming non-viable would only result in the JPIV being mandatory, and Mechanized being thrown to the wasteside, but would leave you with no early game counters to blobbing.

A lot of people fail to take into account that if the Panther is nerfed, and it stops being built. What exactly do we have left?

The PIV still cannot operate effectively anymore with the Jackson on the field and Zook spam, the Panther for Ost is gated behind large teching costs.

And for OKW, the Panther is all that they have to counter large amounts of medium armor, shreks are still only carried by fragile and crushable infantry, and the JPIV isn't mobile enough to provide support.

The Panther becoming non-viable would only result in the JPIV being mandatory, and Mechanized being thrown to the wasteside, but would leave you with no early game counters to blobbing.

Those all sound like problems not related to the Panther overperforming. They sound like other issues that may need to be addressed in other ways. Such as a Rak buff etc.

And LOL@Zook blobs. Must be 4v4 your talking about there...

Those all sound like problems not related to the Panther overperforming. They sound like other issues that may need to be addressed in other ways. Such as a Rak buff etc.

And LOL@Zook blobs. Must be 4v4 your talking about there...

I just had to deal with it in a 2's game. With a muni cache here and there you can get a fair amount of Zooks out. And they do a good level of DPS to mediums such as the PIV, Ost, and StuG.

EDIT: Regardless, the Panther is not over preforming, if allied armor needs help it needs help, we don't need the last non-doc MBT in the game for Axis to be reduced to non-viability.

A lot of people fail to take into account that if the Panther is nerfed, and it stops being built. What exactly do we have left?

The PIV still cannot operate effectively anymore with the Jackson on the field and Zook spam, the Panther for Ost is gated behind large teching costs.

And for OKW, the Panther is all that they have to counter large amounts of medium armor, shreks are still only carried by fragile and crushable infantry, and the JPIV isn't mobile enough to provide support.

The Panther becoming non-viable would only result in the JPIV being mandatory, and Mechanized being thrown to the wasteside, but would leave you with no early game counters to blobbing.

Nobody is saying such a nerf should come without a buff to Raketenwerfer. But your argumentation is extremely forced, think about the tank itself. Allies have a lot of problems on their own and their tank destroyers are still worse. Axis can do the AT without tanks far better because of Panzerschrecks.

Panther is overperforming. If an overperforming unit is nerfed properly, it becomes balanced, not useless.It would then still be built.

Bazooka is utterly useless and not even remotely decent even against Panzer IV. So "bazooka blob" is out of the question. If you do face it somehow, roll over the already poorly scaling Riflemen (unless they have .30 cals) since they are outnumbered and/or undergunned, after all someone needs to carry the bazooka and something needs to be paid for it.

Panzer IV can fight Soviet tanks effectively and Jackson cannot brute force a Panzer IV with panzerschreck and stunning Pak40 around. It would be the same thing with Panther; you avoid the enemy tank, except Panzer IV stands a far better chance because Jackson is far worse than a Panther and Panzerschreck is far superior to something like PTRS or Bazooka.

If you want T3 to be used more , you should first admit that Panther is overperforming. You would then have a case to make Panzer IV better. As it stands you're supporting the notion that there's no way T3 should ever get a buff when Panther is so good.

There is no such thing as MBT in WWII thats a post war construct. Axis has plenty of AT and have never ever and never will hurt in that department. After all the Pak40 is like a Jackson with Better Pen. Ost can make that in T2.

JP4 DPSwise is almost EXACTLY what a Pak40 is. It just has worse Pen. Its not like anything outside of an IS2 it really matters though.

And then there are Shreks...

OKW won many many games before they buffed the Panthers armor back to prenerf levels. I am sure they would survive....somehow...yknow like they did...