Real Talk: Panther

I'm not sure why you waste your "precious" time commenting here when all you want to do is to insult me for my effort, sound cool and not really add anything to the discussion. If you want to point out what's substantially better for Jackson/SU-85/Easy Eight/T-3485, go ahead, Panther is flat out the best among them. It's the most durable, it has the best abilities, it has the most penetration and it has the weakest opposition. Reading the wall of text is actually important as it explains why exactly things are ridiculously one sided for the Panther.

+1 OP. Teching costs aside the Panther just does the whole destroying tanks thing better. With both MGs it can kill infantry at about the same rate as a Soviet Sniper thats invincible. If you want to see no AI see Jackson, SU85, JP4.

For a 170 fuel tank that in the OKW world hits so fast its got too much going for it and not enough going against it.

When they rolled back the Armor and Blitz Nerf they should have also rolled back the Penetration buff it recieved to compensate for those nerfs. But Relic decided FUCK IT roll back what we though was OP and leave the buff alone!

What every happened to spending more fuel should equal victory in the tank arena? Thats when Relic identified the Panthers armor as too much. You know when the thought that two T34/76 should stand up against a Panther.

Well the Panther nerf elimination just blew that whole concept out of the water. Show me someone who loses a Panther to dual T34/76s and ill show you someone who doesnt know how to use reverse.

+1 OP. Teching costs aside the Panther just does the whole destroying tanks thing better. With both MGs it can kill infantry at about the same rate as a Soviet Sniper thats invincible. If you want to see no AI see Jackson, SU85, JP4.

For a 170 fuel tank that in the OKW world hits so fast its got too much going for it and not enough going against it.

When they rolled back the Armor and Blitz Nerf they should have also rolled back the Penetration buff it recieved to compensate for those nerfs. But Relic decided FUCK IT roll back what we though was OP and leave the buff alone!

What every happened to spending more fuel should equal victory in the tank arena? Thats when Relic identified the Panthers armor as too much. You know when the thought that two T34/76 should stand up against a Panther.

Well the Panther nerf elimination just blew that whole concept out of the water. Show me someone who loses a Panther to dual T34/76s and ill show you someone who doesnt know how to use reverse.

Thank you, I was really surprised that it's only the... Well, Axis-inclined crowd that responded and quite vehemently at that, I'm glad you get my point. The sadder part is that, make those 76s into 85s and the Panther still stands a very good chance of killing one and then making a getaway anyway.

Thank you, I was really surprised that it's only the... Well, Axis-inclined crowd that responded and quite vehemently at that, I'm glad you get my point. The sadder part is that, make those 76s into 85s and the Panther still stands a very good chance of killing one and then making a getaway anyway.

Reason why the Panther is never going to get nerfed is because Ostheer T3 is already unviable, and making the Panther unable to break allied armor pushes would basically leave Ostheer without a MBT or Tank hunter.

The Panther preforms fine for it's cost, it doesn't over preform at all, it has low DPS compared to the other TD's.

The only thing that needs adjusting is blitz.

Im not sure about one thing... Are you expecting T34/76 or Shermans to fight Panther?
It's like expecting IS2 to fight Elephnat.

Panther is made to kill tanks. Of course 2 T34/76 or E8 can kill but only when Panther user is braindead.

Point is, Panther should melt medium tanks and should be quite useful against heavy units.

There is a reason why Panther was the best WW2 tank.

The only OP thing I can find about Panther is blitz and smoke.

Great armor + great speed + blitz + smoke. Such combinations leaves you a great hole for misteakes but it's a problem of all axis heavies, not just Panther.

Im not sure about one thing... Are you expecting T34/76 or Shermans to fight Panther?
It's like expecting IS2 to fight Elephnat.

Panther is made to kill tanks. Of course 2 T34/76 or E8 can kill but only when Panther user is braindead.

Point is, Panther should melt medium tanks and should be quite useful against heavy units.

There is a reason why Panther was the best WW2 tank.

The only OP thing I can find about Panther is blitz and smoke.

Great armor + great speed + blitz + smoke. Such combinations leaves you a great hole for misteakes but it's a problem of all axis heavies, not just Panther.

I said 85 or Easy 8. Or Jackson or SU-85. The former two are only more expensive than their dinky counterparts for increased AT performance and slightly more survivability for T-34/85 by the virtue of having 800 hp (both are still sure pens) and the latter two are tank destroyers that aren't as good as half a Panther. Obersoldaten are made to kill infantry too, I suppose you consider them to be fine as well?

And best WW-II tank was T-34/85 for winning the war and being very cost effective at killing all the German big cats like Tiger and later King Tiger. Panther was like the pretty but dumb girl, too many problems, nice to look at.

IMO the panther is a bit OP due to its vet 2 increased combat effectiveness.
Its not that bad against infantry as some people like to point out but the combination of superior armor and penetrations makes it op.
Can penetrate any allied vehicle reliably,at the same time deflecting most shots except for the heaviest.

I said 85 or Easy 8. Or Jackson or SU-85. The former two are only more expensive than their dinky counterparts for increased AT performance and slightly more survivability for T-34/85 by the virtue of having 800 hp (both are still sure pens) and the latter two are tank destroyers that aren't as good as half a Panther. Obersoldaten are made to kill infantry too, I suppose you consider them to be fine as well?

And best WW-II tank was T-34/85 for winning the war and being very cost effective at killing all the German big cats like Tiger and later King Tiger. Panther was like the pretty but dumb girl, too many problems, nice to look at.

The Panther is a Tank Hunter, in game it doesn't have a unit that fulfills the same roll as it. It's impossible to compare to the generalist mediums like the 85 and Easy Eight

It's what Ostheer gets in return for not having a traditional TD at all.

I said 85 or Easy 8. Or Jackson or SU-85. The former two are only more expensive than their dinky counterparts for increased AT performance and slightly more survivability for T-34/85 by the virtue of having 800 hp (both are still sure pens) and the latter two are tank destroyers that aren't as good as half a Panther. Obersoldaten are made to kill infantry too, I suppose you consider them to be fine as well?

Obers have no counter in infantry. Sometimes Paras or Shocks can do it, but its very situational.
Panther can be countered by vehicles.
That's the difference.

E8 should be no match for a Panther, which is fine.
85 is already very good counter against Panthers. I can post you a replays where 2 SU85s are killing Panthers
Same for Jackson. Sometimes you get bad RNG when shells are bouncing, but in the end with good micro, Jackson can do the job against Panther.

Nerfing Panther is not a way out.
You should buff counters.

Im not sure about one thing... Are you expecting T34/76 or Shermans to fight Panther?
It's like expecting IS2 to fight Elephnat.

Panther is made to kill tanks. Of course 2 T34/76 or E8 can kill but only when Panther user is braindead.

Point is, Panther should melt medium tanks and should be quite useful against heavy units.

There is a reason why Panther was the best WW2 tank.

The only OP thing I can find about Panther is blitz and smoke.

Great armor + great speed + blitz + smoke. Such combinations leaves you a great hole for misteakes but it's a problem of all axis heavies, not just Panther.

These were the talks around the last armor balancing. After the last march deployment where they Nerfed the KV series of tanks as well as the Panther.

Yes IRL the Panther was great. But IRL there are alot of other factors that dont apply. The Panther was performing fine before the rebuff to the frontal armor. If you go back and dig for the showcase videos of the Jackson vs the Panther they were Asymetrically balanced.

A single Jackson could beat a Panther if it got the first shot advantage and back peddled. The Panther could beat the Jackson if the reverse was true.

This is no longer the case. IF the Panther goes after a Jackson the Jackson is done in 9.9 out of 10 cases.

There is no need for all the attributes the Panther has going for it with no drawbacks. It has longer range, better armor, better speed, blitz, more HPs and better vet then other mediums. The only area it lacks is lower overall DPS due to reload. But its made up for by almost 100% chance to Penetrate.

One area in this list needs to be reduced. If they want to just nerf the OKW version and need a lore reason? OKW is late war and the Germans metallurgy in the late war was hurting. So if anything leave the Ostheer one alone and leave the OKW with crappier frontal armor.

Obers have no counter in infantry. Sometimes Paras or Shocks can do it, but its very situational.
Panther can be countered by vehicles.
That's the difference.

E8 should be no match for a Panther, which is fine.
85 is already very good counter against Panthers. I can post you a replays where 2 SU85s are killing Panthers
Same for Jackson. Sometimes you get bad RNG when shells are bouncing, but in the end with good micro, Jackson can do the job against Panther.

Nerfing Panther is not a way out.
You should buff counters.

2 SU-85s can kill Panther due to the range advantage. 2 Panthers will never lose to any amount of SU-85s because the amount of SU-85s needed to do that is not realistic.

Easy Eight should kill a Panther in pairs, not lose one and watch the Panther blitz away.

T-34/85 =/= SU-85

Obersoldaten are mulched by many Allied squadrons at close range. I'd say countering Panther with vehicles is harder than countering Obersoldaten with infantry. Only ISU-152 can claim to be somewhat good at it.

Good micro means Jackson will also never kill Panther thanks to schrek support and no self spotting.

Sure, buff the counters? Why? It's Panther that overperforms, not Panzer IV.

The Panther is a Tank Hunter, in game it doesn't have a unit that fulfills the same roll as it. It's impossible to compare to the generalist mediums like the 85 and Easy Eight

It's what Ostheer gets in return for not having a traditional TD at all.

Give me a "tank hunter" then, as the Allied tank destroyers are pretty pale in comparison. They either require lots of micro, a lot of luck, or both. Panther? Sure penetration on just about everything, great armor, great abilities.

These were the talks around the last armor balancing. After the last march deployment where they Nerfed the KV series of tanks as well as the Panther.

Yes IRL the Panther was great. But IRL there are alot of other factors that dont apply. The Panther was performing fine before the rebuff to the frontal armor. If you go back and dig for the showcase videos of the Jackson vs the Panther they were Asymetrically balanced.

A single Jackson could beat a Panther if it got the first shot advantage and back peddled. The Panther could beat the Jackson if the reverse was true.

This is no longer the case. IF the Panther goes after a Jackson the Jackson is done in 9.9 out of 10 cases.

There is no need for all the attributes the Panther has going for it with no drawbacks. It has longer range, better armor, better speed, blitz, more HPs and better vet then other mediums. The only area it lacks is lower overall DPS due to reload. But its made up for by almost 100% chance to Penetrate.

One area in this list needs to be reduced. If they want to just nerf the OKW version and need a lore reason? OKW is late war and the Germans metallurgy in the late war was hurting. So if anything leave the Ostheer one alone and leave the OKW with crappier frontal armor.

The issue with nerfing the OKW Panther is that is leaves OKW in a very ackward spot, due to the nonvaibility of the JPIV, and the fact that if you went mechanized your screwed if the Panther cannot fulfill it's roll.

The Panther has plenty of counters in the form of infantry based AT, which it cannot fight off. AT guns will quickly make short work of it if they player is attempting to push your position and mediums with it.

Ultimately the Panther for Ostheer is just to expensive due to tech 4's costs.

If you want to do something just increase the OKW Panthers MP cost by 50%, this will delay it without gating it behind fuel which OKW typically can't easily get ahold of.

I think the real problem is here what to do with the Panther besides the obvious of nerfing blitz....

Give me a "tank hunter" then, as the Allied tank destroyers are pretty pale in comparison. They either require lots of micro, a lot of luck, or both. Panther? Sure penetration on just about everything, great armor, great abilities.

The Panther doesn't have anywhere near the DPS even with 100% pen, and DPS is what matter when it comes to finishing off tanks. The Jackson also has better accuracy as well as higher damage, but it's not a Tank Hunter so it lacks in the armor and health dept.

And again; you can counter the Panther with out THAT much effort, it cannot take on infantry, use this to your advantage.

The Panther has plenty of counters in the form of infantry based AT, which it cannot fight off. AT guns will quickly make short work of it if they player is attempting to push your position and mediums with it.

Ultimately the Panther for Ostheer is just to expensive due to tech 4's costs.

What infantry based AT? The AT grenades that don't go through half the time to snare the thing? Bazookas and PTRS that bounce all the time? I would be inclined to agree if Allies had Panzerschreck. T-34/85 can't fight enough Panzerschrecks however good it may be at killing infantry with its main gun, so why should being swarmed by incomparably horrible infantry based AT justify Panther's extreme overperformance against vehicels?

And Ostheer tech costs are just fine on the fuel front. It's the MP bit that is out of this world, so reduce MP cost of teching for Ostheer. "I teched so now I can butcher everything" is not a valid excuse.

The Panther doesn't have anywhere near the DPS even with 100% pen, and DPS is what matter when it comes to finishing off tanks. The Jackson also has better accuracy as well as higher damage, but it's not a Tank Hunter so it lacks in the armor and health dept.

And again; you can counter the Panther with out THAT much effort, it cannot take on infantry, use this to your advantage.

Please stop with the higher damage red herring. The damage it does per shot is balanced by its slower reload then other TDs. The SU85 has much better DPS even though its damage per shot is less. But we have gone over this before.

And if you want to bring up its marginal moving accuracy bonus you must also count the Jacksons larger target size for its class like all other USF armor.

I agree with the OP comparing it to Obersoldaten is about right.

Please stop with the higher damage red herring. The damage it does per shot is balanced by its slower reload then other TDs. The SU85 has much better DPS even though its damage per shot is less. But we have gone over this before.

And if you want to bring up its marginal moving accuracy bonus you must also count the Jacksons larger target size for its class like all other USF armor.

I agree with the OP comparing it to Obersoldaten is about right.

The SU-85 does the exact same damage as the Panther, 160. And the Jackson does 240, which is 66% more than the Panthers.

The Panther is not some unbeatable tank, the ZiS gun has over a 50% chance to pen, the SU-85 has over a 50% chance to pen.

Christ on a cracker talk about exaggeration.

I play a fake mod on the internet. Locking this post.

The Panther is not some unbeatable tank.

In the same way Obersoldaten are not unbeatable infantry. They come pretty close and do too well for their cost compared to comparable units.