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@Relic: Maps Maps Maps

11 Mar 2015, 15:01 PM
#21
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

I've certainly been underwhelmed by the maps of CoH2.

Even more so I've been underwhelmed at how territory is treated in CoH2. Unified points giving both muni and fuel, no actual strat points, VPs being territory themselves, etc...

From the first game of closed beta to today, the territory points and mechanics of map control have felt like a hasty placeholder.
11 Mar 2015, 15:10 PM
#22
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2487 | Subs: 21

Relic's Q&A process for adding maps to automatch:
11 Mar 2015, 15:45 PM
#23
avatar of scratchedpaintjob
Donator 11

Posts: 1021 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2015, 15:10 PMVonIvan
funny gif

lol! good one. i hope clarkson is back soon :)

imo snowmaps are pretty bad design, you fight against snow, blizzards, units getting cold, but not against the enemy. cracking ice is the only nice mechanic those maps have added
15 Mar 2015, 12:26 PM
#24
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3



If you are Axis Angermunde is great. If you are allies it is so boring it hurts. Path finding is horid, so no T1 scout cars. Choke points are numerous, fuel is hard to cut off, long concrete lines prevent moving from one side to the other, numerous buildings to call in elite inf from, and map is long and linear punishing infantry retreats.

It could not favor the Axis more unless allies only spawned on one side of a river and had to fight uphill to get into a city.


Not true, Angermünde punishes usf, since in late game your medium tanks block each other on the narrow paths. Other than that, it's very easy to cut off the fuel of the south spawn, so who ever spawns south has a harder time.

T2 soviets shine on that map, so it's not really pro axis or pro allies, it's just anti usf. However when going airborne is kinda hard to escape the P47d strike. I personally like that map, because a lot of red cover seperates good from bad players, if you can position your units good constantly and avoid red cover you will win against mindless blobbers on this map.
15 Mar 2015, 15:44 PM
#25
avatar of sir muffin

Posts: 531

i'm sorry but relic can't comment on this right now
15 Mar 2015, 16:33 PM
#26
avatar of pigsoup
Patrion 14

Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2



Not true, Angermünde punishes usf, since in late game your medium tanks block each other on the narrow paths. Other than that, it's very easy to cut off the fuel of the south spawn, so who ever spawns south has a harder time.

T2 soviets shine on that map, so it's not really pro axis or pro allies, it's just anti usf. However when going airborne is kinda hard to escape the P47d strike. I personally like that map, because a lot of red cover seperates good from bad players, if you can position your units good constantly and avoid red cover you will win against mindless blobbers on this map.


nah. there are some USF units that just shine over SOV counterpart. i.e. Jackson. It is so hard to swing from one side to the other especially with su85, but Jackson is great at that. Also, priest. Since it is meta to at least have one CAS douchebag in axis 3v3+ team, ml20 and b4 is out. which is shame, because heavy indirect fire is only thing that truly favours allies. etc etc.

p47 should not be that hard to dodge using those buildings.

north fuel cutoff is much more potent and easier to control. there is a huge factory building and early OKW rush to the north cutoff can really catch allies with their pants down if the allies werent prepared. while southern fuel cutoff has one shabby building that is beyond the cutoff point.

also, with falls and jaeger light, any map with a lot of buildings tend to favour axis. not to mention okw pak43.
15 Mar 2015, 16:51 PM
#27
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3

Because of the buildings and the green cover OKW can't rush the north, any sane player will defend the cut off building. Or clear it out when okw player occupy it with flamers & mortars.
While the south fuel cut off is completely in red cover and a kübel + sturmpioneer can easily controll that cut off. Even soviet t1 is not gonna help you because scout cars can easily be bated over mines.

The problem about usf medium tanks is that you need 2 Jacksons to scare panthers & tigers off, while you need scotts to deal with potential schreck blobs on that map, so you usally need 3-5 mediums in late game that is a pain to micro when they block each other and don't do what you tell them and you simply use mediums to block/pathing.
15 Mar 2015, 17:53 PM
#28
avatar of Mortar
Donator 22

Posts: 559

Having actually created a map, I can attest that just making the darn things is difficult...much less creating "balanced maps". At least IMHO.

Also, from purely a "simulation" standpoint I always have a chuckle that people are so frustrated with unbalanced maps. In the real war, you got what you got. You met the enemy where you met the enemy. There was no complaining to upper brass about the terrain is too favorable to the enemy. If there was, the answer would be "suck it up and get the job done!" (Yes, I realize this is a game and isn't the same thing...just had to add the above anyways) :hijack:


Anyways, back to the topic at hand. If QA is the real issue here, why doesn't Relic "vet" some pro map makers in the community to do this for them? All they would need to do is insure these folks were interested, talented, and understood Relic's perspective and let them do the work for them. Certainly there are people like Monolithic Bacon, Stahlhagel, Onkle Sam, and others who could potentially fill this role. (Want to be clear here...I am NOT speaking for them. Just using their names as examples) Maybe it would work. Maybe not. But for goodness sakes Relic....TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO ARE TRYING TO HELP YOU!
15 Mar 2015, 17:58 PM
#29
avatar of Basilone

Posts: 1944 | Subs: 2

A long long time ago (like before Tiger Ace was a thing) Eagleheart came on vent with Whiteflash Sib Budwise and myself and asked us what map changes we thought were really important and he addressed our problems as best he could in the next patch. Matt was able to make the changes we wanted in like a week, so if there hasn't been any map tweaking lately, that leads me to believe Relic has him working on other things like maps for another expansion, more free maps for the next patch, or hell maybe even DoW3 maps for all I know.
15 Mar 2015, 18:14 PM
#30
avatar of pigsoup
Patrion 14

Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2

A long long time ago (like before Tiger Ace was a thing) Eagleheart came on vent with Whiteflash Sib Budwise and myself and asked us what map changes we thought were really important and he addressed our problems as best he could in the next patch. Matt was able to make the changes we wanted in like a week, so if there hasn't been any map tweaking lately, that leads me to believe Relic has him working on other things like maps for another expansion, more free maps for the next patch, or hell maybe even DoW3 maps for all I know.


that is nice to hear. i hope this happens again later with the entire map pool.

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Mar 2015, 17:53 PMMortar
Having actually created a map, I can attest that just making the darn things is difficult...much less creating "balanced maps". At least IMHO...


I do not know about this. I think it is quiet easy. just make it so that map is not too closed or open, and symmetrical. not identically but to somewhat.

i.e. Hurtgen Forest... the northern side has to cross the river all the time while southern side never has to unless harassing. wtf.
15 Mar 2015, 18:28 PM
#31
avatar of Mortar
Donator 22

Posts: 559

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Mar 2015, 18:14 PMpigsoup


that is nice to hear. i hope this happens again later with the entire map pool.



I do not know about this. I think it is quiet easy. just make it so that map is not too closed or open, and symmetrical. not identically but to somewhat.


i.e. Hurtgen Forest... the northern side has to cross the river all the time while southern side never has to unless harassing. wtf.


What I meant by difficult is learning to use the World Builder tool. I suspect if it wasn't difficult we would see 10x as many maps as we do. I was a complete novice when I built my first one. I enjoyed the process of learning and doing it, BUT it did take a fairly serious commitment of time and in reality I know it wouldn't stand a chance of passing QA in Relic's mind.

When you combine the difficulty of learning map making, the time commitment, and the fact that Relic refuses to commit QA resources to community maps...there really isn't much incentive to continue to make maps. At least from my perspective.

This is why I only made the one. I spent dozens of hours making this one map and I have YET to even see it played by other players much less ever hope to see it in automatch rotation.
15 Mar 2015, 19:32 PM
#32
avatar of Gdot

Posts: 1166 | Subs: 1

Add Duclair and RBE please.
15 Mar 2015, 20:57 PM
#33
avatar of pigsoup
Patrion 14

Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Mar 2015, 18:28 PMMortar


What I meant by difficult is learning to use the World Builder tool. I suspect if it wasn't difficult we would see 10x as many maps as we do. I was a complete novice when I built my first one. I enjoyed the process of learning and doing it, BUT it did take a fairly serious commitment of time and in reality I know it wouldn't stand a chance of passing QA in Relic's mind.

When you combine the difficulty of learning map making, the time commitment, and the fact that Relic refuses to commit QA resources to community maps...there really isn't much incentive to continue to make maps. At least from my perspective.

This is why I only made the one. I spent dozens of hours making this one map and I have YET to even see it played by other players much less ever hope to see it in automatch rotation.


it does take time to make a map from the scratch. i know that. i think out of 4 maps i made, only one (remastered one) is remotely close to relic map quality in terms of details and cosmetics.

i am talking about just general layouts of the maps that just clearly favour one side.
15 Mar 2015, 21:06 PM
#34
avatar of Mortar
Donator 22

Posts: 559

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Mar 2015, 20:57 PMpigsoup


it does take time to make a map from the scratch. i know that. i think out of 4 maps i made, only one (remastered one) is remotely close to relic map quality in terms of details and cosmetics.

i am talking about just general layouts of the maps that just clearly favour one side.


Yes I completely agree.

But even symmetrical maps made by talented mapmakers (i.e. Crossing in the woods by Onkle Sam) get trashed as unbalanced by many players. In other words, in many cases balance is in the eye of the beholder based upon faction/commander preference. Its not even a LTP issue. Its a learn to break out of your rut issue.
15 Mar 2015, 21:10 PM
#35
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

I don't understand the distaste for symmetrical maps when they are pretty much the staple of every balanced RTS ever made, people constantly demand better balance but seem to be obsessed with keeping things that ruin it.

I would take a million Steppes type maps over 1 Rostov.
15 Mar 2015, 21:38 PM
#36
avatar of ofield

Posts: 420

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Mar 2015, 21:06 PMMortar


Yes I completely agree.

But even symmetrical maps made by talented mapmakers (i.e. Crossing in the woods by Onkle Sam) get trashed as unbalanced by many players. In other words, in many cases balance is in the eye of the beholder based upon faction/commander preference. Its not even a LTP issue. Its a learn to break out of your rut issue.


unbalanced regarding faction design, not starting position.

it does take time to make a map from the scratch. i know that. i think out of 4 maps i made, only one (remastered one) is remotely close to relic map quality in terms of details and cosmetics.


Depends, 2 weeks at max for a solid 2v2 map is what i need.
15 Mar 2015, 22:07 PM
#37
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

It's funny that Relic also has no idea how to use it's own lighting engine, maps that are set to dusk or nighttime look amazing, and there are multiple buildings in the game files that are colorful and nice to look at.

Instead we get endless gray and super bright lighting.
15 Mar 2015, 22:55 PM
#38
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Mar 2015, 21:06 PMMortar

But even symmetrical maps made by talented mapmakers (i.e. Crossing in the woods by Onkle Sam) get trashed as unbalanced by many players.


Crossing was never intended to be a 2v2 map.
Before WFA i had little reasons to veto this map.
15 Mar 2015, 23:18 PM
#39
avatar of turbotortoise

Posts: 1283 | Subs: 4

I'm convinced that every balance issue ever brought up, concentration of forces, defence, resources, heavy tanks call ins et all are all symptoms of horrendous map design which betrays the fundamental philosophy of the game and does no favours to the factions seemingly arbitrarily plopped down on these heaps and forced to grind up against each other. And my god do I agree with alexzandvar do they ever look horrid...
16 Mar 2015, 04:10 AM
#40
avatar of Basilone

Posts: 1944 | Subs: 2

I'm convinced that every balance issue ever brought up, concentration of forces, defence, resources, heavy tanks call ins et all are all symptoms of horrendous map design which betrays the fundamental philosophy of the game and does no favours to the factions seemingly arbitrarily plopped down on these heaps and forced to grind up against each other. And my god do I agree with alexzandvar do they ever look horrid...

Not every map is horrendous and some issues exist on all maps such as the call-in spam which is from bad commander design and has nothing to do with maps whatsoever.
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