VCOH Vs COH2 Meta

vCOH has the two biggest BS ever that COH2 BS cant ever reach.

1) Snipers clocked everywhere
2) Whermacht could buy VET (this was and is the biggest BS ever in this franchise imo).

Oh, sorry.I forgot another one. The popcap. Many of you will attack me now but i dont care. It is my opinion. How stupid this is, if you dont have x territory you cant build more units even if you have the resources.

steam CoH1 metagame was (and still is) boring as fuck. This can however easily change with balance changes as shown by elitemod. What makes it a superior game is much better actual faction design and strategic depth, lack of P2Win and most of all there are (were) actually good players playing it.

Also, a lot of players complain about snipers when they react extremely poorly to them. If you're going blind T2 every game as wehr and then complaining about US snipers, it's not the game, it's you.

Both the new factions are extremely boring strategy wise, there is no strategic depth to any of those match-ups.

vCOH has the two biggest BS ever that COH2 BS cant ever reach.

1) Snipers clocked everywhere
2) Whermacht could buy VET (this was and is the biggest BS ever in this franchise imo).

3) Oh, sorry.I forgot another one. The popcap. Many of you will attack me now but i dont care. It is my opinion. How stupid this is, if you dont have x territory you cant build more units even if you have the resources.

1) Possibly, but it makes the countersnipe system skill-based.

2) Wehrmacht vet are almost all defensive based and far less effective than US/PE earned vet in long run. Vet 3 Rifles slaughter any vet 3 Wehrmarct soldiers.

3) LOL, it is good for the gameplay, tell me the reason why you screw up and shouldn't be punished? When I recalled when I first starting COH2, I owned 80% of the map and Soviet bumped two T-34/85 from nowhere killing all my stuff. You like this?

It would take too long to refute every silly argument in this thread from people who never played or analyzed CoH1 at anything approaching a high level, so I'm not going to bother. Instead, I'll give you some examples of the diversity that CoH1's unit upgrades allowed, and you can draw your own conclusions.

Wehrmacht, thanks to its wide array of veterancy upgrades and diverse T1 unit selection, always had the most potential for strategic variety. What always impressed me the most about high-level Wehrmacht play was the fact that every single top player had a unique and viable style of play. Sepha pioneered VVSMG and usually played a single-tier-heavy style with veterancy relevant to that tier; Aimstrong perfected VVSMG and played to get crazy-fast vet 2 on infantry before transitioning to vehicle play, and even used vet 1 infantry as a fake to get players to invest in snipers while he fast-teched to T3; aljaz played a stupid-long T1 style and poured the fuel he saved into T3 vet upgrades; Tommy loved support vet and was one of the few players to keep using Piospam after its nerf, and devised some other interested support vet strategies like his MG-Sniper Blitz opening; DevM used a little bit of everything and adapted his teching decisions very well to his opponent's play; Mags played an incredibly powerful defensive style with support, infantry, and tank veterancy.

In every single one of these instances, vet timing and progression played an integral role in the effectiveness of the strategy, and it was those little nuances of varied timings and the dozens of little variables that went into making a teching decision that made high-level CoH1 games so interesting to watch and analyze. Players constantly had these little decisions to make, and their choices had broad-reaching impacts on how the game would proceed going forward. From a macro perspective it just looked like players arbitrarily building units and upgrades, but if you took the time to look closer you could deduce the reasoning behind every little action, and it added an element of mind games and strategic back-and-forth that just isn't present in CoH2.

Even Americans, which were far simpler than Wehrmacht from a strategic perspective, had a variety of options late-game and strict reliance on tight timings in the early-game. Things like delaying BARs to induce your opponent into investing in AT and then flanking with stronger infantry or investing in supply yard upgrades when your opponent thinks you're going for tanks were incredible to watch and analyze, and the viability of every single unit and upgrade in the late-game gave players meaningful choices throughout the game.

CoH1 had a lot of problems. The OF factions were design disasters (and share a lot of traits with the CoH2 factions, which tells you a lot), and the strength of grouped MGs, snipers, and infantry made lower-level play frustrating at times. But the vanilla matchup was very good at encouraging better play and giving players a wide variety of ways to differentiate themselves from others thanks to its upgrade dynamic and strong, diverse core factions. It's that dynamic and diversity that CoH2 is sorely lacking.

I watched plenty of vCoH 2.601 games a few months ago. I picked them from the most wubbed replays on GR and they included players like Razor, Seb, Freestyler, GosuStarcraft (aka HuK), Kot, Aimstrong etc. And to be fully honest the meta back then was just as bad as what we have in CoH2 atm if not worse. Almost every single game goes like this (maybe 9 out of 10):

-high skilled early game by both players with nice rifle flanking great mg play->highly entertaining and nice to watch and waaaay better than what we have atm
-ami goes infantry in every single game
-wehr goes either t1 t2 t3 or t1 t3 and ends up spamming pumas but even the very best players with top notch micro have awful vehicle control and suicide them like crazy against Rangers, Sticky Riflemen, M10s or AT guns.
-american build is heavily infantry based (eg Rifles+multiple Rangers+Supply Yard Upgrades+Inf Upgrades+Howitzer)
-players stick to their build no matter what happens->howitzer gets destroyed after one barrage by firestorm ? Build another one ! First Puma dies after one minute ? (this happens in a surprisingly large percentage of the games) Build another one !
-some units are built in most games but barely have an influence (Nebelwerfer get like 3-4 kills per game on average, other than that all they do is denying ground and forcing american at guns who seem to miss pumas 90 % of the time to move)

Clearly I watched different games than you. Or maybe 2.602 was different than 2.601?

But VCOH was not perfect, which is why so much hope was placed in COH2. Trusight is definitely a superior technology that adds tactical elements vCOH didn't have. And the "cloaking" mechanics make more sense (you can't be moving and have to be in some sort of cover) than invisible kettens and AT guns moving around the map.

I can't decide if the resource system from points makes more sense or less, but it does make individual points less important than they were in vCOH.

I would add that I don't like the sniper meta in vCOH. It breaks the WWII feel. No one came out of WWII thinking that the way to win wars was to make snipers a defining part of their ground war strategy.

1) Possibly, but it makes the countersnipe system skill-based.

2) Wehrmacht vet are almost all defensive based and far less effective than US/PE earned vet in long run. Vet 3 Rifles slaughter any vet 3 Wehrmarct soldiers.

3) LOL, it is good for the gameplay, tell me the reason why you screw up and shouldn't be punished? When I recalled when I first starting COH2, I owned 80% of the map and Soviet bumped two T-34/85 from nowhere killing all my stuff. You like this?

1) This is still not justifying it imo. Maybe it had a positive side but the way it works now is so much better, except the 2 man soviet sniper.

2) Still, you could buy it and the longer the game lasted the better for the wher. You could not care if your infantry would die.

3) Because you have most of the map does not mean that the opponent did something wrong. And anyway in my logic i does not make sense that territory should have the impact on the amount of your troops. You already get the penalty that you don't have the resources. It is just dump that you can have many resources but can not using them because of that. It makes no sense in my eyes. If you cut someone of in vCoh, the game is over, in COH2 not. I like that.

Mmmmmm, yes, vCoH uber alles. SIS strat best strat, mein gott I shot straight up the 1v1 ladder until I smacked facefirst into the lv 15 plateau. R/R/R/R/R/BAR/E/SY/TD/~10 minute Sherman. 5 BAR Rifle flanks in a rolling human wave, and mines EVERYWHERE.

Then there was the infinite fun of 4ES.

SayNoToKlaus was fun for a while, it actually made playing against PE fun.

BiB just to be a dickhole.

The Vet1 -> T3 Blitz fakeout of infinite fun.

PaK creeping.

Countersniping someone and having them drop soon-after.

Jeep/bike pushing. Christ, you nancies moan about truck pushing? Real men drove their jeep right up into your grill.

2) Still, you could buy it and the longer the game lasted the better for the wher. You could not care if your infantry would die.

In no fucking way, Wehrmarct vet won't make their infantry kill faster (except sniper), but after Rifles accumulate enough experience they slaughter everything. Vetted Airborne and Rangers are like almost unkillable.

3) Because you have most of the map does not mean that the opponent did something wrong. And anyway in my logic i does not make sense that territory should have the impact on the amount of your troops. You already get the penalty that you don't have the resources. It is just dump that you can have many resources but can not using them because of that. It makes no sense in my eyes. If you cut someone of in vCoh, the game is over, in COH2 not. I like that.

WTF, so he had done nothing wrong letting me capturing his resource, you serious?

And yes, if you cut him off and pin his remaining units in base, it's over. And it should be over, why would the callin system of COH2 rewarding players who just screwed up, by a stupid one click?

In no fucking way, Wehrmarct vet won't make their infantry kill faster (except sniper), but after Rifles accumulate enough experience they slaughter everything. Vetted Airborne and Rangers are like almost unkillable.



WTF, so he had done nothing wrong letting me capturing his resource, you serious?

And yes, if you cut him off and pin his remaining units in base, it's over. And it should be over, why would the callin system of COH2 rewarding players who just screwed up, by a stupid one click?

For your first argument: Never said that. Its still VET, it gives you bonuses which you bought and not earned like the US,PE and Brits. Does not matter what bonuses they are.

Annyway, can we at least agree that we disagree?
I see it different then you so... makes no sense to continue arguing

CoH1 meta was and is more enjoyable than CoH2 meta for a variety of reasons, but Inverse already typed up roughly what I was going to say so with that being said, long live the vcoh master race.

For your first argument: Never said that. Its still VET, it gives you bonuses which you bought and not earned like the US,PE and Brits. Does not matter what bonuses they are.

Annyway, can we at least agree that we disagree?
I see it different then you so... makes no sense to continue arguing

You just don't understand.

Volks vet:

Vet 1:
Slow regeneration

Vet 2:
Increase LOS
Neglect-able incoming damage decrease

Vet 3:
1.2 HP

Rifles vet:

Vet1:
1.25 accuracy
0.8 received accuracy

Vet2:
Even more 1.1 accuracy
0.85 received damage
more Sticky range
0.75 harder to suppressed

Vet3:
Even more 1.2 accuracy
1.5 damage

Dude, just comparing to vet 1 Rifles and vet 3 Volks, Rifles rape the crap out of Volks "bought" vet.
Vet 3 Rifles kill Germans faster than COH2 Obers.

What if Grens?
Same as Volks,except Vet 2 getting Elite armour, can be solved with BAR, snipers, explosive weapon.

Conclusion:
US vet is a hell lot more powerful than Wehr vet, SY upgrade, nade/BAR upgrade making Rifles even easier to vet, that's mean arguable US can "buy" their vet too.

You just don't understand.

Volks vet:

Vet 1:
Slow regeneration

Vet 2:
Increase LOS
Neglect-able incoming damage decrease

Vet 3:
1.2 HP

Rifles vet:

Vet1:
1.25 accuracy
0.8 received accuracy

Vet2:
Even more 1.1 accuracy
0.85 received damage
more Sticky range
0.75 harder to suppressed

Vet3:
Even more 1.2 accuracy
1.5 damage

Dude, just comparing to vet 1 Rifles and vet 3 Volks, Rifles rape the crap out of Volks "bought" vet.
Vet 3 Rifles kill Germans faster than COH2 Obers.

What if Grens?
Same as Volks,except Vet 2 getting Elite armour, can be solved with BAR, snipers, explosive weapon.

Conclusion:
US vet is a hell lot more powerful than Wehr vet, SY upgrade, nade/BAR upgrade making Rifles even easier to vet, that's mean arguable US can "buy" their vet too.

How many vet3 rifles did you see in games? 1 or 2 maybe 3 if you where lucky so don't come here with the stats. The real life/game was different. But ALL Wher units had vet. And guess what you didnt loose vet if your units did die. Also the US Units... oh wait!!!!

Buying vet (doesnt matter what bonuses) is BS.

How many vet3 rifles did you see in games? 1 or 2 maybe 3 if you where lucky so don't come here with the stats. The real life/game was different. But ALL Wher units had vet. And guess what you didnt loose vet if your units did die. Also the US Units... oh wait!!!!

Buying vet (doesnt matter what bonuses) is BS.

I usually have them in late game. Saving last hit of wounded panzer for them is the easiest method. Vetted Rifles solely able to win games for you, even easier with Inf company because they can spam mines and kill more dudes.

You say that 4 rifles + 2 flame engis ==> m4 spam are more diversity ??

Ok...

You say that 4 rifles + 2 flame engis ==> m4 spam are more diversity ??

Ok...

Learn to read what Inverse typed.

Ehh - no point with this as a lot of the vCOH bashers are just COH2 only players or DOW imports.

The most important part of vCOH vs COH2 is that vCOH is actually FUN TO PLAY.

The same can't be said for COH2.

You say that 4 rifles + 2 flame engis ==> m4 spam are more diversity ??

Ok...

Right... cause no one ever mixed it up by going BARs for their rifles, or a Howie instead of the m4, or Calliope, or AB with AT drop and recon run.. Sorry, but everything I described had something COH2 doesn't... strategic choices of which side of your tech tree or of global upgrades.

That your mind went straight to a build order and a complaint of lack of unit mix is a possible indicator you are happy with the box out of which you refuse to think.

I watched plenty of vCoH 2.601 games a few months ago.

Clearly I watched different games than you. Or maybe 2.602 was different than 2.601?

2.602 had a total different mate game then 2.601 had. In fact a way better and improved meta game. Check the 2.602 replays, 2.602´s meta game is way more flexible and entertaining to watch then the 2.601 meta was. CoH1 need a very long time to reach a exactable level. But CoH1 had the potential to do so. CoH2 lags this potential.

How stupid this is, if you dont have x territory you cant build more units even if you have the resources.

It´s not stupid at all. It adds strategic deep.

2) Wehrmacht could buy VET (this was and is the biggest BS ever in this franchise imo).

The most unexperienced players think like that. Sure, WH could buy vet. Sounds like an unfair advantage but WHs vet was a very weak vet compared to US vet. US had to fight for theire vet, thats why it is stronger and harder to achive. Buying vet isn´t unfair at all, it makes a lot of sense adds strategic deep.

The most unexperienced players think like that. Sure, WH could buy vet. Sounds like an unfair advantage but WHs vet was a very weak vet compared to US vet. US had to fight for theire vet, thats why it is stronger and harder to achive. Buying vet isn´t unfair at all, it makes a lot of sense adds strategic deep.

When I was a noob I also thought that way about INFANTRY vet.

But I still think that way about Wehr armor vet. Vet on US armor is not huge and lends nothing to a units survivability. Wehr armor vet adds survivability (received damage reduction, more hitpoints, reduced penetration chances, and free anti-infantry). And it isn't like Wehr armor needs added strength to punch through US armor.

When I was a noob I also thought that way about INFANTRY vet.

But I still think that way about Wehr armor vet. Vet on US armor is not huge and lends nothing to a units survivability. Wehr armor vet adds survivability (received damage reduction, more hitpoints, reduced penetration chances, and free anti-infantry). And it isn't like Wehr armor needs added strength to punch through US armor.

Yea, but you got less units on the field for better units. Easy to overwhelm. That was the point, US was quick fast dirty attackers who overwhelm their enemy vs the better armed better equipped superior heavy and less numerical units. I found it fun (not to mention US vet was epic) Vet 2 / 3 rifles with a shrek? Yes please. It forced american player to CONSERVE their units, so if you went balls deep attack (since your units were better at attacking, right?) it would stop you from suiciding squads, making a cool back and forth mechanic. You needed those rifles to kill too, so you had to flank around MG's to get that vet, and play careful but still be aggressive. I don't know, I like how it forced players to think, it was appreciated.