OKW Redesign

This is a post I made in the OKW manpower thread, but I wanted to get more peoples opinions on my idea. Take note that this would be part of a redesign of all factions in a perfect world.

If I was to radically redesign OKW I would give all OKW squads a 5th man and adjust pricing accordingly. Remove the LMG 34 and give Obers StG 44's and a optional LMG upgrade for 90 muni. Sturms get a Faust when you set down your first HQ, Volks have an optional AI upgrade of 3 StG 44's + cold protection for 90 muni if you don't want a shrek.

BG HQ has an AT gun you can make at it that's different from the Ost Pak 40, IR HT is moved to mechanized, ISG is either buffed or just removed from the game. All vehicles across the board get a 33% reduction in fuel cost but a 50% increase in MP cost, so the Panther is 735 MP but only 115 fuel, JP IV is 600 MP but only 85 fuel. That way as you take up pop cap your ability to make vehicles is drastically reduced due to lower MP income, this allows you to actually get tanks out the door but it's actually hard to replace them.

Flak HT set up time is removed, it just needs to stop to fire. It has an optional lock down at vet 3 like the USF AA HT that extends it's range and makes it more effective against air craft, it would take several seconds to break the lock down and you couldn't use smoke while locked down either.

Puma is given an optional armor upgrade that increase health and armor, said upgrade removes the ability to use smoke and slows the Puma down.

Stuka Zu Fuss gets incendiary barrage at vet 3 instead of 4. It's reload time is reduced but it fires in a circle like it does with the incendiary barrage instead of a line. This way it's better against blobs and denying territory while still being an effective building counter, but a smart player will almost always be able to move out of the way of the barrage instead of having no win scenarios were your caught in an alley way/retreat path.

Once 2 HT are converted you can build static howitzers, but they have to be in a sector that you have converted an HT on but if the HQ dies the howitzer remains operational. So no building artillery in your own base that's proof from enemy fire. There are 3 tiers of howitzer each tied to a building:

In the BQ HQ sector you can create a LefH 105mm Howitzer, unit would cost 600 MP with a vet 3 ability that allows it to fire incendiary shells:



In the Mechanized HQ sector you can make a sFH 18 149mm Howitzer, unit would cost 700 MP with a vet 3 ability that allows it to fire directly at an enemy tank in LoS:



In the Schwer HQ sector you can make a 21 cm Nebelwerfer 42, unit would cost 500 MP and be capable of firing smoke barrages when you reach vet 1:



Sturmtiger is given the ability to track again, and you can pay munitions to make it reload faster. PzII can enter scouting mode similar to the t70 allowing it to sight for itself at the cost of reduced speed and ROF. Panther's improved armor/health at vet 2 is removed, you can instead chose to upgrade it's armor for a set amount of munitions.

KT is special, it's fuel cost/mp cost remains the same but for every KT that hit's the field your fuel income is reduced by 33%. It's vet 1 blitz ability is removed and instead replaced with a vet 1 ability that drastically increases your ROF but comes with a long cool down and heavy munition cost.

Commander changes:

Fort remains mostly the same except the Pak43 has to be in an HQ sector (but will remain operational if the HQ is destroyed) and it takes the place of any artillery you could have built in that sector.

Luftwaffe has some major changes, instead of being a regular infantry doctrine this one focus's on using Germany's advanced air force. Fallsch no longer just pop out of buildings, they are para dropped in by plane. The final ability of this doctrine (12 CP) is a bomb strike call in were a Arado Ar 234 drops several bombs in a line, the plane cannot be shot down and the ability can be called in on an area with out vision Cost: 250 munitions. Replacing the MG34 is a early strafe similar to the close air support one. The advanced fortifications ability is replaced with a recon over flight. Valiant Assault is kept the same.

Spec Ops remains mostly the same, IR StG 44's take the place of the Ober LMG upgrade, Panther has armor/health upgrade like the regular ones does. Radio silence is removed and replaced with radio intercept but costs munitions and only lasts for a limited time.

Salvage is reworked. Ostwind call in is moved to 7 CP's and has the same MP increase and fuel reduction as the rest of the faction. Advanced Salvage now gives you the ability to either salvage for more fuel, MP, or munitions. Advanced Salvage is only capable of being preformed by Sturmpioneers. The 105 howitzer artillery call in is replaced with a on map buildable 35.5 cm Haubitze M1 Artillery piece that making disallows you for constructing any more howitzers that game. It could be only built in your Mechanized HQ center at 12 CP and it takes munitions to reload after each barrage. JLI remain the same.



Elite armored is entirely redone. At 2 CP it gets a Pgren in HT call in. At 4 CP your Sturms gain the ability to repair engine damage quickly for munitions similar to the USF crew ability. At 6 CP your tanks can detect enemy tanks at a distance out of LoS, the crew will note to you what weight class the tank is (light, medium, heavy) but not the specific type. At 10 CP for 210 fuel and 900 MP you can call in two PIV Ausf J tank aces (as in they are both vet 5), you fuel and MP income is reduced similar to the Tiger Ace call in.

Breakthrough remains mostly the same, the quick decap ability is moved to 2 CP and increases the speed of your infantry as well. Jadgtiger reduces your fuel income by 33% like a KT does, but other wise remains the same price as it did before. Breakthrough Officer is removed and replaced with a Artillery officer similar in form to the Ostheer one.

I post this because it believe much like Inverse, that if we want balance it's going to come from a redesign of the factions, not just numbers tweaking. But having any of the ideas in my post would be very cool, my favorite part being the howitzers.

The general theme is that the player is given plenty of options, but will never have enough MP to take all of them. I think this is the best way to reflect the late 1944 German army at the battle of the bluge.

Especially the artillery part, considering how much of it was used in the Bulge

Puff puff, pass.

interesting, but pass due to too many small things i disagree with.

Certainly, thorough.

A couple points about all those big guns, personally I'd like to see them in the game, but attached to a commander, simply to keep them in line with the Ost/Sov. And, with the proposed fuel changes, I can foresee a situation where you have 11-13 minute panthers which as someone who likes the USF, frightens the hell out of me; maybe another tank needs to be added like a weaker PiV to bridge that gap, keeping the cost the same, fuel wise. No mention of the pupchen either, I used to think it was garbage until I realized their cost, and what 2 of them, (cost equivalent to a PaK40) can do, when I made the mistake of rolling my sherman up on one to flank.

Certainly, thorough.

A couple points about all those big guns, personally I'd like to see them in the game, but attached to a commander, simply to keep them in line with the Ost/Sov. And, with the proposed fuel changes, I can foresee a situation where you have 11-13 minute panthers which as someone who likes the USF, frightens the hell out of me; maybe another tank needs to be added like a weaker PiV to bridge that gap, keeping the cost the same, fuel wise. No mention of the pupchen either, I used to think it was garbage until I realized their cost, and what 2 of them, (cost equivalent to a PaK40) can do, when I made the mistake of rolling my sherman up on one to flank.

The Puppchen just isn't functional due it's small squad size and the need for it to be in a building. it also loves to shoot the ground. The MP increase in cost of vehicles is supposed to actually delay how fast tanks come in, as if you get to much infantry before you hit tech 3 you simply won't have the MP to make one.

735 manpower is NOT cheap, to put that into perspective, that's the equivalent of 3.17 Volks squads, or 1.87 Ober's.

interesting, but pass due to too many small things i disagree with.

Care to state them?

Puff puff, pass.

wow, such a informative argument.

As far as the pupchens accuracy, I'd say the same for the Jackson, tune it.

A single pupchen should struggle, but again I'm taking a holistic approach, a couple raketenwerfers for their price + whatever other support you manage to cobble together is usually ample AT support. Certainly enough not to just throw the thing in the scrap heap and make it irrelevant by adding another AT option.

735 mp is cheap in comparison to how much MP one can have by the 18min mark: around when one can expect a panther. One can have between 4-5 volks a luchs and an Ober squad. If the fuel cut was implemented, a player could simply cut the ober squad and instead have a panther, closing an OKW vice grip before the quarter hour mark. It's also cheap regarding army composition, 2 Airborne squads, or a panther? 2 shocks or a panther, etc. etc.

600 MP and 85 fuel for Jadgpanzer?
Yea. No more AA truck, Stuart or Shermans since I can get Jadgpanzer around 8min

Med truck+3(4)volks+2(1)Panzerfusi+Kubel+Stormpio into 9min Jadgpanzer.

There's a lot of stuff here I agree with, including most importantly the big picture: the problem isn't with the numbers, the problem is with the design.

However Relic has basically never altered any of their design tenets in COH2, with the half-exception of 4-man Axis weapons squads. Pretty much everything else has been fiddling with DPS/AOE/etc. So my suggestion is not to waste your time thinking about ways to improve the design because it ain't gonna happen; and if it were, I would choose other things first (like no fuel from strategic sectors and popcap linked to map control).

There's a lot of stuff here I agree with, including most importantly the big picture: the problem isn't with the numbers, the problem is with the design.

However Relic has basically never altered any of their design tenets in COH2, with the half-exception of 4-man Axis weapons squads. Pretty much everything else has been fiddling with DPS/AOE/etc. So my suggestion is not to waste your time thinking about ways to improve the design because it ain't gonna happen; and if it were, I would choose other things first (like no fuel from strategic sectors and popcap linked to map control).

I don't see how map-control linked popcap does anything but discourage comebacks. It's true that CoH1 had more comebacks overall, but that was because Allies were generally stronger in comparison to CoH2 at super late game.

600 MP and 85 fuel for Jadgpanzer?
Yea. No more AA truck, Stuart or Shermans since I can get Jadgpanzer around 8min

Med truck+3(4)volks+2(1)Panzerfusi+Kubel+Stormpio into 9min Jadgpanzer.

I didn't even consider the JP4.

As far as the pupchens accuracy, I'd say the same for the Jackson, tune it.

A single pupchen should struggle, but again I'm taking a holistic approach, a couple raketenwerfers for their price + whatever other support you manage to cobble together is usually ample AT support. Certainly enough not to just throw the thing in the scrap heap and make it irrelevant by adding another AT option.

735 mp is cheap in comparison to how much MP one can have by the 18min mark: around when one can expect a panther. One can have between 4-5 volks a luchs and an Ober squad. If the fuel cut was implemented, a player could simply cut the ober squad and instead have a panther, closing an OKW vice grip before the quarter hour mark. It's also cheap regarding army composition, 2 Airborne squads, or a panther? 2 shocks or a panther, etc. etc.

It's not cheap if your actually buying units. In this world 4-5 Volks a Luchs (which will cost 473 MP) and Obers (Which will be 500 MP) will delay you getting a Panther significantly.

The goal is to make it so it's encouraged to get Light Vehicles and T1/T2 units instead of just rushing out a Schwer as fast as you can. The current high fuel cost means that your just floating MP and using it for nothing (which makes shrek blobs hard to deal with) while stalling until you get enough fuel for a Panther because your early game vehicles don't preform well enough in such low numbers to be cost worthy.

The idea of making the OKW starting units more dynamic and upgradeable is to make players want to use them. Make people want to get the JPIV or the Puma instead of just stalling for Panthers. And if your opponent does try and rush a Panther he will be so MP drained from it that you can just walk all over his tiny little army, and his Panther can't do anything about it (Due to it's very lack luster performance against enemy infantry).

600 MP and 85 fuel for Jadgpanzer?
Yea. No more AA truck, Stuart or Shermans since I can get Jadgpanzer around 8min

Med truck+3(4)volks+2(1)Panzerfusi+Kubel+Stormpio into 9min Jadgpanzer.

4 Volks, 2 Panzerfus and a Kubel will be 2080 MP. And at the pop cap you would be at a 8 minute JPIV would be impossible, not to mention you wouldn't want one anyway since you could just build an AT gun at your medi truck.

And that JPIV would also be the only tank he would be getting out for a while, since it's 14 pop cap which makes the MP reduction even large.

Can you see the trend here, It's supposed to be easier to get your tanks out onto the field, but harder to replace them.

I didn't even consider the JP4.

It might be prudent to move it to T3, considering how it's in T1 but is still a non-light vehicle.

Mods, correct me if I'm wrong but is cross posting duplicate reply/topics not against forum rules? I do not see why this should not remain in the OKW manpower thread. Please lock/delete this topic.

Mods, correct me if I'm wrong but is cross posting duplicate reply/topics not against forum rules? I do not see why this should not remain in the OKW manpower thread. Please lock/delete this topic.

I didn't want to derail that thread?

All that indirect fire would be lovely yet pretty unlikely I guess. Seems pretty cool, just wondering if making vehicle timing rely mostly on manpower would allow you to ignore map control for the most part. Like that Panther would be coming out even if you are cut off from your fuel all the time.

All that indirect fire would be lovely yet pretty unlikely I guess. Seems pretty cool, just wondering if making vehicle timing rely mostly on manpower would allow you to ignore map control for the most part. Like that Panther would be coming out even if you are cut off from your fuel all the time.

The 33% reduction in pricing would just put OKW on the level of other factions fuel income wise versus vehicle price, meaning that map control would remain as important as it does for USF/Ostheer/Soviets, but OKW would need to play smarter in how it invests it's limited MP and pop cap.

It would make OKW less able to dominate if it got to many points however, as right now it's semi unbalanced that if OKW gets lucky with a enemy squad wipe or two and establishes early map control the added resource income really helps with rushing certain units. So if you were holding 2 fuel points the benefit is reduced because your having to save MP to get a tank, as apposed to saving fuel and ignoring spending your MP in a smart way.

EDIT: Not to mention you need territories to put your HQ's in, and putting them to far back can limit your ability to power project/build howitzers.

It's not cheap if your actually buying units. In this world 4-5 Volks a Luchs (which will cost 473 MP) and Obers (Which will be 500 MP) will delay you getting a Panther significantly.

That panther arrives at 17 minutes at around 20ish fuel/pm give or take, the current change would allow it arrive 3 minutes earlier with one less Ober squad, 1 minute after a very fast Sherman arrives, maybe I'm just getting caught on semantics.

The idea of making the OKW starting units more dynamic and upgradeable is to make players want to use them. Make people want to get the JPIV or the Puma instead of just stalling for Panthers. And if your opponent does try and rush a Panther he will be so MP drained from it that you can just walk all over his tiny little army, and his Panther can't do anything about it (Due to it's very lack luster performance against enemy infantry).

Can you see the trend here, It's supposed to be easier to get your tanks out onto the field, but harder to replace them.

My point is, these changes would hardly cripple an OKW players current army composition, and if anything, allow the tanks to come out earlier, at such a time when there wont be any threat to their existence, hence no need to replace them.

The goal is to make it so it's encouraged to get Light Vehicles and T1/T2 units instead of just rushing out a Schwer as fast as you can.

Everything coming earlier just makes me want to get them... earlier, not use other units.

That panther arrives at 17 minutes at around 20ish fuel/pm give or take, the current change would allow it arrive 3 minutes earlier, 1 minute after a very fast Sherman arrives, maybe I'm just getting caught on semantics.



My point is, these changes would hardly cripple an OKW players current army composition, and if anything, allow the tanks to come out earlier, at such a time when there wont be any threat to their existence, hence no need to replace them.




Everything coming earlier just makes me want to get them... earlier, not use other units.

In a perfect world the fastest you could get a Panther out if you made Obers before it would be around ~20 minutes.

The changes are not made to cripple the OKW player, it's meant to adjust how OKW plays to be less bullshit and more skill based. Less ability to replace vehicles meaning you need to play smart with them, but you actually have the ability to do something other than Panther rush.

Rushing a Panther with this system would mean that your going to be waiting a very long time before making anything else, so youve locked yourself in and if your opponent counters your Panther your screwed. (And a Panthers usefulness is quite limited mid game were you need counters to enemy infantry, not heavy tanks).

The most important changes are things like: Obers being 500 MP with out the LMG34 starting, Volks being reworked to upgradeable for anti infantry OR anti tank, KT causes you to take reduced fuel income, more indirect fire allowing OKW to deal with blobs more efficiently.