Damn this balance

careful! everytime i asked someone to show their playercard, my post gets invisid' by mods, and i get given a warning

so i've stopped doing it

Then your wrong. And your wrong way to often. And i grow tired of your uninformed posts. play a few okw games and a few ostheer games (in 1vs1 not scrub team games) and you will understand actually what the strengths and the weaknesses of these factions are. Then you and the rest of the fangirls who have been complaining about the OKW since the beginning would finally understand why the OKW is so god awfully powerful in teamgames. and guess what it has nothing to do with units or vet or even shrek blobs.

It has something to do called economy. Something that fucked up balance in coh 1 as well.

Says the most biased guy in the form. Show your player card or a replay, we have been waiting for ages.

Says the most biased guy in the form. Show your player card or a replay, we have been waiting for ages.

Showing your playercard is stupid asking for it shows you cannot counter my arguments and you fail.

I'm seeing a lot of people saying that 85s wouldn't work nondoctrially because of their stats (25% more HP is the main problem with them).

I don't see why the t34/85 couldn't replace the t34/76 if the 85 had the same HP pool as non-doc mediums and the same armor as a t34/76. If this were the case, it would enter the battlefield with a higher AT power than the P4, with less AI (no mg), less scaling, (no skirts), and less armor.

This would give soviets a nondoctrinal medium that they can use all game, while only slightly changing the matchup between ostheer t3 and soviet t3. If you just look at their stats, the main things that give t34/85s teeth is their HP pool and their access to mark vehicle (which is only available in 3 doctrines).

This seems to me the best idea to base the rework of callins on. Maybe couple this with a rework of the Stug g into a medium TD (weaker than JP4 and SU85, stronger than su76).

The t34/85 would be swapped in all doctrines with t34/76s, so that the doctrines have a stopgap, cheap tank to fulfill a "meatshield" role in the soviet army.

Great idea. The best I heard so far.

Nobody would ever use doctrines that call in the T34/76 ever again. People don't use elite armored for a reason.

Can we move the T34/85 to tier 4 instead of replacing the T34/76 entirely? then again both tiers would have to be redesigned since SU can build one or the other currently.....

Nobody would ever use doctrines that call in the T34/76 ever again. People don't use elite armored for a reason.

The t34/76 would still be a choice though. You could build it for 310 mp 100 fuel, but wouldn't have to pay tech costs. This would give you a viable target if you decide to go for doctrinal armor, giving you a cheap, spammable medium tank to supplement t4 builds, that will not scale into late game at all.

IMO, this should be the way doctrinal armor works. It shouldn't be a straight upgrade over existing units, it should give you access to a unit to supplement you forces (ISU), or give you access to a weaker, but viable replacement to your basic units (t34/76).

Also, talking about elite armored, the reason we don't see it used as often is due to the fact that most of OKW's doctrines provide players with game changers like Pak43s and Jagdtigers. Elite armored is not currently one of the best doctrines because it doesnt bring anything new to the battle, it just increases the micro tax on armor, making them more powerful (This is my favorite doctrine for that reason). If the pz4 battlegroup was a choice for ostheer, I can assure you that it would be used more often.

The t34/76 would still be a choice though. You could build it for 310 mp 100 fuel, but wouldn't have to pay tech costs. This would give you a viable target if you decide to go for doctrinal armor, giving you a cheap, spammable medium tank to supplement t4 builds, that will not scale into late game at all.

IMO, this should be the way doctrinal armor works. It shouldn't be a straight upgrade over existing units, it should give you access to a unit to supplement you forces (ISU), or give you access to a weaker, but viable replacement to your basic units (t34/76).

Also, talking about elite armored, the reason we don't see it used as often is due to the fact that most of OKW's doctrines provide players with game changers like Pak43s and Jagdtigers. Elite armored is not currently one of the best doctrines because it doesnt bring anything new to the battle, it just increases the micro tax on armor, making them more powerful (This is my favorite doctrine for that reason). If the pz4 battlegroup was a choice for ostheer, I can assure you that it would be used more often.

Elite Armored is crap. None of the abilities it has are worth a damn and anyone who defends it must not actually ever use it.

The Commander artillery is expensive (and awful), and you already are paying for the commander. The repair is expensive AND bugged/broken, the armor detection ability is as useless as the Soviet one, and the Ausf J come in far to late and for 210 fuel which is literally 50 fuel less than a KT which is far more of a game changer.


People will always just make the best units, people will never not make the best units. Adding shit units to the game will not encourage people to use shit units. If you gave every faction every unit from every commander the meta would change not one bit except you might see a little less cookie cutterness.

If you can make a better unit with out a commander what is the point of taking a commander that gives you worse units. It's why nobody uses Irregulars, it's why Partisans are just a gimmick, and it's why people who use armored company are brain damaged.

[...]
Also, talking about elite armored, the reason we don't see it used as often is due to the fact that most of OKW's doctrines provide players with game changers like Pak43s and Jagdtigers. Elite armored is not currently one of the best doctrines because it doesnt bring anything new to the battle, it just increases the micro tax on armor, making them more powerful (This is my favorite doctrine for that reason). If the pz4 battlegroup was a choice for ostheer, I can assure you that it would be used more often.

Mind if I reformulate?
"Elite Armour", a comical name if there ever was one, is not popular since its calling card ability provides two mediocre medium tanks that come too late to have any meaningful impact and prevent you in turn from gaining a strong medium tank (the Panther)that can actually fight Allied call-ins successfully.

Not to mention that the rest of its abilities are by and large useless/bugged.

Elite Armored should give you 2 Vet 5 Ausf J, they are still bloody PIV's and are countered easily by Jacksons.

Elite Armored should give you 2 Vet 5 Ausf J, they are still bloody PIV's and are countered easily by Jacksons.

Talk about exaggeration...the doctrine as a whole is pissweak and obviously needs a rework, but lets not cast the baby out with the bathwather.

Talk about exaggeration...the doctrine as a whole is pissweak and obviously needs a rework, but lets not cast the baby out with the bathwather.

What exactly about Vet 5 PIV Ausf J is inconstant with the name "Elite Armored". Just make it so it works like the Tiger Ace does for that Ostheer commander.

Bam, there you go.

talking about non doctrinal t85's is pointless imo. Because this will never ever happen.

What exactly about Vet 5 PIV Ausf J is inconstant with the name "Elite Armored". Just make it so it works like the Tiger Ace does for that Ostheer commander.

Bam, there you go.

It might not be incosistant, except for the fact that the PIVJ was at the lower end of the power curve in the German armour lineup and was indeed a simplified model streamlined for mass production without even an electric turret drive...
Far more importantly than the historical nitpicking though, I just don't like the idea of instant maximum vet. Anyways, the doctrine (like many others, partiularly EF faction ones) needs a total rework, most abilities have zilch applicability or just dont work. Tweaking the vet won't do.

Guys, I actually think I have a good solution for the whole 85/76 debate. Basically, 85 comes in place of 76 after you purchase an upgrade that costs 50% of T3, and has the exact same stats as it does now. Playtesting has shown it to be pretty balanced; some even said that it came in too late and that they would rather stick to doctrines.

And my solution to 76 was an Armored Reserves ability that calls in a pair of them for 800 MP, unlocked after you have all tech levels, which cost a total of 400 Fuel. Since T1 or T2 + T3 cost 170 fuel, and another 200 for T-34/76, this means your first pair comes in 30 fuel more expensive, but any subsequent pairs you get are for MP only. The difference is that you have access to your entire faction, you get the tanks quite a bit later than you would get your first T-34/76, and it comes late enough that Panthers and other stuff like that are there to make MP-only T-34/76 balanced.

I actually put all these in a minimod, a link to which you'll find in my signature.

Elite Armored is crap. None of the abilities it has are worth a damn and anyone who defends it must not actually ever use it.

The Commander artillery is expensive (and awful), and you already are paying for the commander. The repair is expensive AND bugged/broken, the armor detection ability is as useless as the Soviet one, and the Ausf J come in far to late and for 210 fuel which is literally 50 fuel less than a KT which is far more of a game changer.


People will always just make the best units, people will never not make the best units. Adding shit units to the game will not encourage people to use shit units. If you gave every faction every unit from every commander the meta would change not one bit except you might see a little less cookie cutterness.

If you can make a better unit with out a commander what is the point of taking a commander that gives you worse units. It's why nobody uses Irregulars, it's why Partisans are just a gimmick, and it's why people who use armored company are brain damaged.

It sounds like you are trying to call me a liar. Is that what you are implying? I use elite armor all the time, you can ask my 2v2 AT partner.

Radio Intercept: A bit on the expensive side at 50 mu, but the information it gives you is invaluable when planning a large scale assault/ flank. It is a slightly cheaper and worse version of the partisan spy network, that shows all enemy armored units on the minimap. If you want to see what unit each symbol pertains to, use the tacmap. In noway is this worse than the soviet ability. The soviet ability only works for your conscripts and CE squads, and only shows arrmor on the minimap that is 1 extra sight range away.

Crit Repair: A very niche ability, but it can be a lifesaver if you use armor aggressivly to scout (ie. luchs at vet 1). If you hit a mine, find a place to hide and crit repair. It is a bit expensive, but worth it if you can save your armor. Not very good otherwise.

HEAT shells: One of my favorite abilities out of all the commanders. What these do is increase range and penetration on all main cannon shells fired by the vehicle this is activated on. This is especially useful to help the puma scale into the later game and to let the panther/ jagdpanzer 4 solo all enemy armor including the IS2.

Panzer Commander: A 30 mu upgrade that gives you a panzer commander instead of a pintle mg. The commander increases your vehicles sight range (useful on panther) and gives you access to an offmap artillery barrage callable from your tank. The barrage is 120 mu, and is a slighty weaker version of the US Time on Target barrage. It takes a long time to callin, so use it vs. Defensive positions and enemy on-map artillery. This strike oneshots a b4/ ml-20.

P4-battlegroup: Not one of my favorite abilities, the p4s come late and have trouble with t34s, however, the ability to upgrade armored skirts i quite useful, and, more importantly, with heat rounds, the P4s can fight heavier enemy armor quite well. Most importantly, the P4s vet exceedingly fast, and at vet5 become absolute beasts. Use these to support your panther/KT later in the match or to hardcounter enemy infantry spam. Make sure to support with other AT if you need to engage larger armor. Don't fall into the trap of rushing these, they are not baseline armor. They are support armor.

In regards to your statement that people don't make shit units, Soviets have to pick between t3 or t4. t4 gives you access to defensive units like the su85 which are weak when flanked. T34/76 would fill the hole in your tech choice, while not giving you a unit that is flat out better than your choice in the other tier building. I can honestly see no reason why you would say that t34/76 would never be see again.

Mind if I reformulate?
"Elite Armour", a comical name if there ever was one, is not popular since its calling card ability provides two mediocre medium tanks that come too late to have any meaningful impact and prevent you in turn from gaining a strong medium tank (the Panther)that can actually fight Allied call-ins successfully.

Not to mention that the rest of its abilities are by and large useless/bugged.

If you don't like the p4s, don't use them. Build a panther, upgrade a panzer commander, and use all the abilities provided to you by the commander for maximum effect. In fact, I find elite armor to be the best counter to B4. Panzer commander artillery, while slow to hit, only costs 120 mu and one shots ANY artillery piece.

It sounds like you are trying to call me a liar. Is that what you are implying? I use elite armor all the time, you can ask my 2v2 AT partner.

Radio Intercept: A bit on the expensive side at 50 mu, but the information it gives you is invaluable when planning a large scale assault/ flank. It is a slightly cheaper and worse version of the partisan spy network, that shows all enemy armored units on the minimap. If you want to see what unit each symbol pertains to, use the tacmap. In noway is this worse than the soviet ability. The soviet ability only works for your conscripts and CE squads, and only shows arrmor on the minimap that is 1 extra sight range away.

Crit Repair: A very niche ability, but it can be a lifesaver if you use armor aggressivly to scout (ie. luchs at vet 1). If you hit a mine, find a place to hide and crit repair. It is a bit expensive, but worth it if you can save your armor. Not very good otherwise.

HEAT shells: One of my favorite abilities out of all the commanders. What these do is increase range and penetration on all main cannon shells fired by the vehicle this is activated on. This is especially useful to help the puma scale into the later game and to let the panther/ jagdpanzer 4 solo all enemy armor including the IS2.

Panzer Commander: A 30 mu upgrade that gives you a panzer commander instead of a pintle mg. The commander increases your vehicles sight range (useful on panther) and gives you access to an offmap artillery barrage callable from your tank. The barrage is 120 mu, and is a slighty weaker version of the US Time on Target barrage. It takes a long time to callin, so use it vs. Defensive positions and enemy on-map artillery. This strike oneshots a b4/ ml-20.

P4-battlegroup: Not one of my favorite abilities, the p4s come late and have trouble with t34s, however, the ability to upgrade armored skirts i quite useful, and, more importantly, with heat rounds, the P4s can fight heavier enemy armor quite well. Most importantly, the P4s vet exceedingly fast, and at vet5 become absolute beasts. Use these to support your panther/KT later in the match or to hardcounter enemy infantry spam. Make sure to support with other AT if you need to engage larger armor. Don't fall into the trap of rushing these, they are not baseline armor. They are support armor.

In regards to your statement that people don't make shit units, Soviets have to pick between t3 or t4. t4 gives you access to defensive units like the su85 which are weak when flanked. T34/76 would fill the hole in your tech choice, while not giving you a unit that is flat out better than your choice in the other tier building. I can honestly see no reason why you would say that t34/76 would never be see again.



If you don't like the p4s, don't use them. Build a panther, upgrade a panzer commander, and use all the abilities provided to you by the commander for maximum effect. In fact, I find elite armor to be the best counter to B4. Panzer commander artillery, while slow to hit, only costs 120 mu and one shots ANY artillery piece.

You can coast on using Elite Armored if the people you play against are terrible, but as a commander it is hot flaming garbage of the highest degree.

The radio intercept is worthless because it shows every tank as being the same, so you have exactly zero idea if the unit your going to attack is an ambulance or an IS2. And it's expensive for what it does.

The crit repair is WORSE than worthless because it's bugged to all hell, use this ability if you enjoy every shot from an enemy tank decrewing your tank.

Heat Shells are honest to god the biggest insult in this entire commander: Here, shells that make you do more pen and NOTHING ELSE, it's not like all your tanks already have a fairly high penetration chance. It's just a giant waste of munitions, and the Puma is for people who don't know how to counter light armor with AT guns and the Flak Trak.

The Panzer Commander just reduces your tanks DPS, nothing else. The Artillery is so bloody slow that unless what your calling it in on can't move, it won't do anything. And for static emplacements, why not for far cheaper just shoot it with the tank you currently have your Panzer Commander in?

Use these to support your panther/KT later

Yeah, instead of you know. Just getting a KT which is just 50 fuel more expensive, I'll get two tanks that are literally useless if there is a single USF player on the enemy team.

In regards to your statement that people don't make shit units, Soviets have to pick between t3 or t4. t4 gives you access to defensive units like the su85 which are weak when flanked. T34/76 would fill the hole in your tech choice, while not giving you a unit that is flat out better than your choice in the other tier building. I can honestly see no reason why you would say that t34/76 would never be see again.

People will never take that commander, because people will just go t3 and spam T34/85s while using a commander that gives them actual things they are missing.

The T34/76 doesn't fill a hole, it's just a poor investment of resources that could have gone into something else. Being a call in doesn't justify a unit being garbage compared to what you could possibly make with out the commander.

People will always get the best unit, people will never not do this. The solution to fixing Soviets is changing the teching system and making the units in it better while keeping the limited call ins better, not making call in's shit and making the stock units better.

If you don't like the p4s, don't use them. Build a panther, upgrade a panzer commander, and use all the abilities provided to you by the commander for maximum effect. In fact, I find elite armor to be the best counter to B4. Panzer commander artillery, while slow to hit, only costs 120 mu and one shots ANY artillery piece.

If the opponent is letting you anywhere near their B4 they are probably going to be able to be beat with any commander in the game. Or you are going to get hilariously owned when that B4 1 shots your tank lol.

Why would I intentionally gimp myself when in Spec Ops I can get a tank that gives ALL my tanks better vision than the Panzer Commander while keeping their DPS. Elite Armored is the worst OKW doctrine in the game by miles, sorry, it's a fact.

Oh and lmao at the "If you don't like the finale ultimate call in of the commander why not just use it?" Why not just not bloody use this useless commander.

You can coast on using Elite Armored if the people you play against are terrible, but as a commander it is hot flaming garbage of the highest degree.

The radio intercept is worthless because it shows every tank as being the same, so you have exactly zero idea if the unit your going to attack is an ambulance or an IS2. And it's expensive for what it does.

The crit repair is WORSE than worthless because it's bugged to all hell, use this ability if you enjoy every shot from an enemy tank decrewing your tank.

Heat Shells are honest to god the biggest insult in this entire commander: Here, shells that make you do more pen and NOTHING ELSE, it's not like all your tanks already have a fairly high penetration chance. It's just a giant waste of munitions, and the Puma is for people who don't know how to counter light armor with AT guns and the Flak Trak.

The Panzer Commander just reduces your tanks DPS, nothing else. The Artillery is so bloody slow that unless what your calling it in on can't move, it won't do anything. And for static emplacements, why not for far cheaper just shoot it with the tank you currently have your Panzer Commander in?



Yeah, instead of you know. Just getting a KT which is just 50 fuel more expensive, I'll get two tanks that are literally useless if there is a single USF player on the enemy team.



People will never take that commander, because people will just go t3 and spam T34/85s while using a commander that gives them actual things they are missing.

The T34/76 doesn't fill a hole, it's just a poor investment of resources that could have gone into something else. Being a call in doesn't justify a unit being garbage compared to what you could possibly make with out the commander.

People will always get the best unit, people will never not do this. The solution to fixing Soviets is changing the teching system and making the units in it better while keeping the limited call ins better, not making call in's shit and making the stock units better.



If the opponent is letting you anywhere near their B4 they are probably going to be able to be beat with any commander in the game. Or you are going to get hilariously owned when that B4 1 shots your tank lol.

Why would I intentionally gimp myself when in Spec Ops I can get a tank that gives ALL my tanks better vision than the Panzer Commander while keeping their DPS. Elite Armored is the worst OKW doctrine in the game by miles, sorry, it's a fact.

Oh and lmao at the "If you don't like the finale ultimate call in of the commander why not just use it?" Why not just not bloody use this useless commander.

Obviously you didn't read my meticulously written post on all the abilities in this, so let me try this again.

You can use the tacmap to see what unit is being shown on you map. merely put your cursor over the unit in question and a tooltip will popup to explain what unit is being shown.

Don't use crit repair in combat. Use it on a tank that has heavy engine damage after a battle, so that you can pull it back to get real repairs. There is no reason for your tank to be alone, asking to be hit by enemy armor. There are these units called volksgrenadiers which will be able to deal with just about any enemy armor that shows up.

HEAT shells give you more penetration AND more range. Range is undeniably a good increase for any tank, especially when most people who play nothing but OKW seem to show how great the jackson is because of its range advantage over axis armor.

The panzer commander increases your tanks vision marginally, and more importantly, it lets you one shot field artillery. It is not hard at all to sneak into an enemy base with a tank if you use radio intercept when the enemy is looking the other way. Not to mention, that you can use the kubel/sturmpioneers to sweep for mines ahead of you. This works on just about any 2v2 map with the possible exception of minsk pocket and semoisky.

The p4s are 100 fuel less than a KT (assuming you haven't built your last tier yet), and have FAR greater AI firepower than a panther would. Not to mention that a jackson that shoots your P4s (which should be behind your supported armor) means that your panther/jp4 has free reign on the jackson. The jackson requires 3 penning hits to kill a p4 (and it has a chance to bounce) while a panther/jp4 only requires 3 hits to kill the jackson. Both the panther and the jp4 have a faster ROF than a jackson.

Great way to shrug off my comments on the t34/76. "people will just go t3..." That is claiming that t4 will never be built and offers no advantages over t3, since no one ever builds the katyusha which is one of your favorite soviet units.

Your point about the command panther is true, however, that doctrine fulfills a different niche. Spec ops is for infantry heavy play, Elite armor is for armor micro heavy play.

Also, this is a question to the mods. Should we move all this balance discussion to another thread, or is this fine?

HEAT Shells give you more Pen, nothing else. The emergency repair is bugged so the abandon chances will stick with your tank after the ability is over.

The P4's are only 50 fuel less than the KT, the call in ability is 210 fuel. And even spending 90 more fuel for a KT is a better option than getting 2 tanks that are slightly better than a tank that is supposed to come in at minute 10, not minute 25.

You should be 1 shotting field artillery with the tank you are in, not the expensive call in ability (If they person is bad enough to let you anywhere near that artillery piece).

If the t34/85 was in T3, people would 100% go that over T4 every time and just use doctrine units to cover their lack of indirect. People don't go t3 these days because it has little in the way of late game staying power.

You are never going to be shooting and killing Jacksons that belong to a good player with your Panthers and PIV's. The Jackson is the most mobile TD in the game, it can easily just moonwalk away from your tanks.

It's like I'm arguing with someone from a parallel universe. Every OKW commander is better, Elite Armored is a cool concept, just horribly horribly implemented.

HEAT Shells give you more Pen, nothing else.

30% damage and penetration.

Please, think/check then post.

PD: this doesn't make Elite armor any better