ATM the Assault Grenadiers from Mechanized Assault Doctrine scale quite bad into late game. I think it would be an option to give them 4xSTG44 for 100mun as an upgrade like Stormtroops.
Your thoughts pls.
Assault Grenadiers
24 Feb 2015, 09:09 AM
#1
Posts: 34
24 Feb 2015, 09:14 AM
#2
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Soviet basic infantry also scales bad into late game and they got nothing, same for scout cars and most light armor.
Point: Not every unit is meant to scale into late game.
Point: Not every unit is meant to scale into late game.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
24 Feb 2015, 09:21 AM
#3
Posts: 4928
Nah just move the Panzergrenadier guy into the middle of the squad and give him an MP 44 at Vet 3. That doesn't really do anything, but it looks cool.
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24 Feb 2015, 09:34 AM
#4
10 
Posts: 4785 | Subs: 3
Soviet basic infantry also scales bad into late game and they got nothing, same for scout cars and most light armor.
Point: Not every unit is meant to scale into late game.
Indeed. Especially Infantry, that is mainly focused on AI (like AssGrens and Shocks) because this role gets taken over by vehicles and/or artillery at some point.
Problem with the AssGrens is, that they don't even suit into the early game. Schocks can easily survive the midgame because of their armor. AssGrens can't stand against mainline infantry in any way, they even get eaten by Cons when closng in to effective range.
24 Feb 2015, 09:37 AM
#5
Posts: 362
Point: Not every unit is meant to scale into late game.First post in balance forums here. Completely disagree with that assertion. I think RTSs should at least attempt to provide useful roles for units through all stages of the game. Otherwise you're punished for having good unit preservation by being stuck with a bunch of useless units sucking up your population cap. Which is silly.
A good example of a unit that was given great scaling was the Sd.Kfz 251 halftrack in CoH1. After it ceased to be useful as a frontline combat unit, it could be rigged up with Wurfrahmen 40s and used as an artillery vehicle. Which was great because it meant you didn't have to suicide your vehicle for pop-cap after heavy vehicles hit the field.
24 Feb 2015, 10:01 AM
#6
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
First post in balance forums here. Completely disagree with that assertion. I think RTSs should at least attempt to provide useful roles for units through all stages of the game. Otherwise you're punished for having good unit preservation by being stuck with a bunch of useless units sucking up your population cap. Which is silly.
A good example of a unit that was given great scaling was the Sd.Kfz 251 halftrack in CoH1. After it ceased to be useful as a frontline combat unit, it could be rigged up with Wurfrahmen 40s and used as an artillery vehicle. Which was great because it meant you didn't have to suicide your vehicle for pop-cap after heavy vehicles hit the field.
Thats not really how RTS games work.
Even in best RTS games, early game units are being replaced by late game tech, look at one of my all time fav RTS-WC3, footmen replaced by knights, orcs by taurens and so on.
Even in SC2 you wouldn't be using marines and zerglings after certain time, would you?
Its no different here except for the fact that one army is absolutely forced to use units that become completely irrelevant late game.
If you preserved your AGs, just use them for capping, they'll beat all other capping squads effortlessly.
And your example is flawed(just like it was flawed in coh1), you had late game unit with a price of early game one-if that is not the definition of imbalance, then I don't know what it.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
24 Feb 2015, 10:13 AM
#7
10 Posts: 4785 | Subs: 3
And if you preserved your AGs, just use them for capping, they'll beat all other capping squads effortlessly.
But I don't get squads in the early to let them fit the role of just being a capping unit. You might do this in 4v4 but in 2v2 for example I would rather get my 4 Grens out because they can actually help you in the late game.
24 Feb 2015, 10:21 AM
#8
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
Assault Grens are very good. I mean, you can run straight at your enemy because you will lose. You must get behind bulding or any other vision blocker and wait. Enemy must come to you. That's all about AssGrens. Let them come, not otherwise. And if you will be able to catch enemy in the building if nades then... 
24 Feb 2015, 11:17 AM
#9
Posts: 959
Soviet basic infantry also scales bad into late game and they got nothing, same for scout cars and most light armor.
Point: Not every unit is meant to scale into late game.
By soviet basic inf. you mean cons? I disagree, since you def need them for their AT nades. That's what keeps your su or isu safe in many cases.
I also think assaultgrens are not even good early game which is why u rarely ever see them in most skilled player's game, even though the commander is quite popular.
24 Feb 2015, 11:20 AM
#10
Posts: 959
Assault Grens are very good. I mean, you can run straight at your enemy because you will lose. You must get behind bulding or any other vision blocker and wait. Enemy must come to you. That's all about AssGrens. Let them come, not otherwise. And if you will be able to catch enemy in the building if nades then...
they still need more armor to be useful in the game
24 Feb 2015, 11:28 AM
#11
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
By soviet basic inf. you mean cons? I disagree, since you def need them for their AT nades. That's what keeps your su or isu safe in many cases.
So does the mines and a pair of AT guns and its not like you'll be short of muni for them unless you went for guards doctrine.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
24 Feb 2015, 11:29 AM
#12
Posts: 1740
they still need more armor to be useful in the game
Nah, I don't want a German-0CP-Shocks. Assgrens imo are not that bad atm. They make heavy pressure in the first minutes. They in fact are The Ostheer's sturmpioneers but Ostheer has a MG42 that can support them. Attacking suppressed units with Assgrens is as effective as a Lugia vs a Metapod. But suppressed units can't use harden.
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And God is saying 'No. These people will deal with me alone.'
24 Feb 2015, 11:46 AM
#13
Posts: 959
So does the mines and a pair of AT guns and its not like you'll be short of muni for them unless you went for guards doctrine.
That's true, but they are different weapons and you usually need them all. This diversity is why I like this game
24 Feb 2015, 11:54 AM
#14
Posts: 959
Nah, I don't want a German-0CP-Shocks. Assgrens imo are not that bad atm. They make heavy pressure in the first minutes. They in fact are The Ostheer's sturmpioneers but Ostheer has a MG42 that can support them. Attacking suppressed units with Assgrens is as effective as a Lugia vs a Metapod. But suppressed units can't use harden.
They don't need to be so strong as the shock troops but they are too not useful now. they are not good and u rarely ever see them atm, at most skilled player games, because of: their lack of armor, high price, lack of faust, lack of any upgrade
24 Feb 2015, 12:21 PM
#15
Posts: 503
Thats not really how RTS games work.
Even in best RTS games, early game units are being replaced by late game tech, look at one of my all time fav RTS-WC3, footmen replaced by knights, orcs by taurens and so on.
Even in SC2 you wouldn't be using marines and zerglings after certain time, would you?
Its no different here except for the fact that one army is absolutely forced to use units that become completely irrelevant late game.
If you preserved your AGs, just use them for capping, they'll beat all other capping squads effortlessly.
And your example is flawed(just like it was flawed in coh1), you had late game unit with a price of early game one-if that is not the definition of imbalance, then I don't know what it.
but then neither wcIII nor scII work the way coh2 does. neither of them focus as much on unit preservation, hence id say your comparison is lacking in applicability
anyways, assgrens do scale in their inteded role as CQ-infantry, which gets completely obsolete as the game drags on and they also profit from gren bulletins, which ,although marginally, still improve them, so id vote for "assgrens are fine for what they are"
24 Feb 2015, 12:44 PM
#16
7 
Posts: 1664
Assault grenadiers can be nice in place of your third or fourth Grenadier but I feel like it will rarely pay off to call one in as one of your first three units.
Sprint can surprise a Soviet sniper or Maxim.
Assault Grenades are quite strong vs. garrisoned buildings.
5 man unit that costs 1 or 2 less mp than Grenadiers to reinforce (I forget
) are easier to re-crew or steal team weapons and pick up dropped special weapons.
Sprint can surprise a Soviet sniper or Maxim.
Assault Grenades are quite strong vs. garrisoned buildings.
5 man unit that costs 1 or 2 less mp than Grenadiers to reinforce (I forget
) are easier to re-crew or steal team weapons and pick up dropped special weapons.
24 Feb 2015, 12:50 PM
#17
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
but then neither wcIII nor scII work the way coh2 does. neither of them focus as much on unit preservation, hence id say your comparison is lacking in applicability
anyways, assgrens do scale in their inteded role as CQ-infantry, which gets completely obsolete as the game drags on and they also profit from gren bulletins, which ,although marginally, still improve them, so id vote for "assgrens are fine for what they are"
True that and this is why army composition does matter.
One AG will reward you with wins in early engagements and get you more ground then additional gren would, but when you decide to spam them, you'll be heavily punished.
As the game goes on they are replaced by LMG grens and even pgrens if one likes to use them, becoming themselves cappers that will chase off other cappers and force proper response from opposing player.
I believe people complain not only because they don't translate well into the late game, but because spamming them is not effective, there seems to be general rule that says "if I can't spam it, it sucks" stuck in players heads.
Its not like they are the only infantry like that, as I've said already whole soviet core doesn't scale at all into late game as conscripts are demoted to being walking mines and exp piñatas past 10 minute mark.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
24 Feb 2015, 13:03 PM
#18
4 
Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2
Indeed. Especially Infantry, that is mainly focused on AI (like AssGrens and Shocks) because this role gets taken over by vehicles and/or artillery at some point.
Problem with the AssGrens is, that they don't even suit into the early game. Schocks can easily survive the midgame because of their armor. AssGrens can't stand against mainline infantry in any way, they even get eaten by Cons when closng in to effective range.
they are only 280mp at 0cp. maybe give them flamer upgraade?
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24 Feb 2015, 13:06 PM
#19
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
I already face this doctrine 9 out of 10 matches I play vs Ostheer. The last thing it needs is a buff.
24 Feb 2015, 13:19 PM
#20
Posts: 1225
I already face this doctrine 9 out of 10 matches I play vs Ostheer. The last thing it needs is a buff.
If you say don't buff assgrens don't you mean tone down the StuG-E?
(and I would concur) Because Assgrens are not what make this doctrine strong or attractive. IMO Assgrens could use a little love, they have too limited utility.
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