PGrens with double panzerschrecks against USF

Wow, I did not know this. Maybe 120 muni upgrade for Volks will deter shrek blobing and add MP40s for AI capabilities.

I'd tend to agree. If the shreck upgrade provided double shrecks at increased cost while simultaneously decreasing the AI of the squad quite a bit volks would be in a much better place. The upgrade decision would be tactical instead of automatic. The high survivability of the squad might still be a concern however.

Rakketenwerfers are a thing and although they need to be better at their job they should be providing the majority of hard AT for OKW with shreck Volks acting as backup AT to discourage flanks.

I might suggest giving Volks an upgrade that provides a pair of MP44s instead of MP40s. Assgrens run into some scaling issues mid game and the whole reason for the upgrade is to make Volks scale.

Volks have high survivability because they vet up very fast using their shrek.

And Relic isn't going to get rid of the shrek until they add more AT units to OKW as a whole, they have said this before. The shrek on Volks is a crutch that allows OKW to deal with with early game to mid game vehicles because they can't get an serious mechanized AT out onto the field until later in the game.

And the Puppchen is awful for far more than the fact it can't hit anything, it has horribly bad survivability.

The thing is with the P4 is it has very poor late game ability, when it gets out on to the field it's an excellent support tank till Jacksons come out and then your going to spend half the bloody game repairing the damn thing.

Specifically with Ostheer your problem is that your enemy has better infantry than you, and better mediums, so the answer to both of those things is Panther/Heavy tank. Why invest in something that is just going to get you mixed results? This of course, can be applied to Pgrens with shreks, if you all you going to get out of it is mediocre performance whats the point?

Choice you make. Do you want to get overun by allied Mediums well you try to stall for your overly cost effective heavy? Or do you want to use Mediums early to even the playing field? These are the choices that make RTS interesting.

Thats like saying I should never build Shermans because a Panther could arrive. The Sherman would get spanked by the P4 but its just cheaper and gives you a huge resource advantage if you can successfully save for the Tiger.

Your logic Flow seems like this to me:

Sherman counters infantry
Shreks counter sherman
P4s counter sherman
Jackson Counters P4
Shreks Counter Jackson (which is true and pretty ok)
Tiger counters all
???Counters Tiger...

Thats a weak argument. The games meta has DEVOLVED into the call in Meta. Its easier thus used. Doesnt mean this strat shouldnt have a downside that is punished heavily. I know you currently enjoy this with OKW but doesnt mean Ostheer should enjoy the same benefit. Or Soviets for that matter.

Not using a P4 doesnt make the P4 bad. Its your choice. If your infantry gets whiped by HE rounds that are designed to kill them Shrek or no well...shouldnt have stalled.

And Relic isn't going to get rid of the shrek until they add more AT units to OKW as a whole, they have said this before. The shrek on Volks is a crutch that allows OKW to deal with with early game to mid game vehicles because they can't get an serious mechanized AT out onto the field until later in the game.

On that we agree. The whole goal should be to shift more of OKW's AT burden away from Volks and onto more dedicated AT platforms, namely the Rakketen.

Anyway, I think this thread is getting derailed. This is supposed to be about Pgrens.

340 manpower,42 reinforce plus 120 munitions -that risks being one shotted is not worth it,sorry.Unless i have munition conversion doctrine(prostruppen/Close air) its not feasible.Pzgren has been a marginal,situational and largely cosmetic 'advanced 'infantry for ost for a long time and remains so.If it was the real deal you would see it much more in tourney and competitive high level games.

OKW is severely punished for choosing a vehicle. if they have to build pumas/JPIVs you will never see anything heavier in an even game. assuming they're not carried by infantry of course. the other issue is that they have a hard time replacing losses.

If shreks are countering your Jackson you have a problem no amount of suggestions can fix. I seriously cannot believe in the year of our lord 2015 people actually still think Ostheer is actually in any possible way "alright" when pretty much every single person who knows anything has stated that they are by and far the worst faction at the moment.

And the issue with P4/T3 is that it isn't cheap! The sherman is in a tech that also contains excellent tanks that are good at what they do, getting a major as USF is just the default progression of the game. If you lose your sherman you still didn't make a mistake in teching.

As Ostheer T3 is extremely vunerable to not only USF, but soviet AT and call in tanks. And in what way does OKW benefit from call in meta when most of their diverse infantry is gated behind it AND the only actual good OKW call in tank is the Jadgtiger as a whopping 290 unadjusted fuel.

If shreks are countering your Jackson you have a problem no amount of suggestions can fix. I seriously cannot believe in the year of our lord 2015 people actually still think Ostheer is actually in any possible way "alright" when pretty much every single person who knows anything has stated that they are by and far the worst faction at the moment.

And the issue with P4/T3 is that it isn't cheap! The sherman is in a tech that also contains excellent tanks that are good at what they do, getting a major as USF is just the default progression of the game. If you lose your sherman you still didn't make a mistake in teching.

As Ostheer T3 is extremely vunerable to not only USF, but soviet AT and call in tanks. And in what way does OKW benefit from call in meta when most of their diverse infantry is gated behind it AND the only actual good OKW call in tank is the Jadgtiger as a whopping 290 unadjusted fuel.

What what? Ostheer is an amazing faction and you don't even need Tiger. A lot of fun to play with many options. Play 2v2, Ost is a beast there. As for 1v1, not many people care about it and the game shouldn't be balanced around 1v1s but 2v2s, as that is the middle ground where most people are.

If shreks are countering your Jackson you have a problem no amount of suggestions can fix. I seriously cannot believe in the year of our lord 2015 people actually still think Ostheer is actually in any possible way "alright" when pretty much every single person who knows anything has stated that they are by and far the worst faction at the moment.

They do by being on the field. They dont need to kill a unit to counter it and render it useless. Please dont get into the skill argument or try to even go that way. Also RNG never happens, Vehciles dont hit mines, Vehicles dont get snared, and Pathing never screws up...

And the issue with P4/T3 is that it isn't cheap! The sherman is in a tech that also contains excellent tanks that are good at what they do, getting a major as USF is just the default progression of the game. If you lose your sherman you still didn't make a mistake in teching.

Try 80+90 Fuel tell me how cheap that is. Now you can buy a Sherman! By the way you get the lowest starting fuel. Welcome to the USF. I am not saying that everything in T3 is great. But nothing in it is bad either. And the P4 is great. Would I take a Jackson over a Stug? Of course. Would I take a Jackson over a Panther? Hell no.

As Ostheer T3 is extremely vunerable to not only USF, but soviet AT and call in tanks. And in what way does OKW benefit from call in meta when most of their diverse infantry is gated behind it AND the only actual good OKW call in tank is the Jadgtiger as a whopping 290 unadjusted fuel.

Who said OKW did? LOL Last I checked the Tiger was Ostheer...

What what? Ostheer is an amazing faction and you don't even need Tiger. A lot of fun to play with many options. Play 2v2, Ost is a beast there. As for 1v1, not many people care about it and the game shouldn't be balanced around 1v1s but 2v2s, as that is the middle ground where most people are.

Non-doctrine USF units can counter and out preform pretty much anything Ostheer can make except the Panther.

They do by being on the field. They dont need to kill a unit to counter it and render it useless. Please dont get into the skill argument or try to even go that way. Also RNG never happens, Vehciles dont hit mines, Vehicles dont get snared, and Pathing never screws up...

Obviously yes Shreks can kill Jacksons, but I would never get shreks to counter one. That's the domain of the Panther/AT guns.

Try 80+90 Fuel tell me how cheap that is. Now you can buy a Sherman! By the way you get the lowest starting fuel. Welcome to the USF. I am not saying that everything in T3 is great. But nothing in it is bad either. And the P4 is great. Would I take a Jackson over a Stug? Of course. Would I take a Jackson over a Panther? Hell no.

Exactly, T3 isn't bad but it isn't great, it's just pretty much out classed by everything that USF and Soviets can build resulting in it's obsolescence.

Who said OKW did? LOL Last I checked the Tiger was Ostheer...

Ostheer are just as commander reliant these days as Soviets really, mostly because of needing Tigers in order to deal with the insane amount of allied mediums and infantry. The Elefant still also has a good place as it comes in good commanders, but the Pak43 comes in some pretty crap commanders.

Call in meta will always be the case as long as it's cheaper and better than teching in every way, this extremely obvious with Ostheer.

Pgrens aren't really good against either inf or vehicles...

Oh yes they are ^^ I had two Pgrens raping even Guards today and after that they were a great support for my Tiger dealing with 85s

I also find Pgrens invaluable when I've lost a few Gren squads and can't afford to/don't want to buy a new round of LMG upgrades for replacement squads.

pgrens are solid soldiers, they're just expensive to reinforce.

The problem is your paying 120 munitions in a munition starved faction for alright AT on a already expensive and fragile squad that is very easy to wipe in 1 shot from a tank despite them being a unit that's supposed to counter tanks.

What's the point of making a unit counter something when the unit that it counters, counters the unit you made much much better?

You should play Ostheer with CAS or Ostruppen Doctrines. The instant-conversion with 50-fuel into 150 munitions is very powerful.


Lets me spam bunkers, panzershreks, LMG-42's etc. etc. etc.

Exactly, T3 isn't bad but it isn't great, it's just pretty much out classed by everything that USF and Soviets can build resulting in it's obsolescence.

Using a P4 to counter a Jackson is like using a Jackson to counter a Panther. Its a bitch. But it is possible. But why would you do that to yourself when you have the option to get a Tiger for the same price?

Thats the problem with the P4 more then anything else. Is you have BETTER options. Why add more micro when you dont have too? I mean if I had heavy tanks as the US i would do the same. And then we could start a thread about how crappy the USF tier tanks are.

Everytime someone quick techs to P4 is just messes up my whole game plan as USF. It removes that vital period where I can wreck havoc against Ost with Mediums.

You dont build a Jackson as your first Tank. Because whats it going to do until the Tiger arrives?

P4 still has a spot. Its just not worth the cost in most cases (unless elite forces) because other options are there.

You should play Ostheer with CAS or Ostruppen Doctrines. The instant-conversion with 50-fuel into 150 munitions is very powerful.


Lets me spam bunkers, panzershreks, LMG-42's etc. etc. etc.

SHHH quit telling people about the hellish commander!

SHHH quit telling people about the hellish commander!

Huehuehuehuehue

P4 still has a spot. Its just not worth the cost in most cases (unless elite forces) because other options are there.

Remember when the P4 was the be all and end all for Ost? Back in the days where Panthers were completely useless and Tigers were just hitpoint sponges...times have changed, and the P4 has not been a beneficiary...

Remember when the P4 was the be all and end all for Ost? Back in the days where Panthers were completely useless and Tigers were just hitpoint sponges...times have changed, and the P4 has not been a beneficiary...

I do I do indeed. The days of the 80 fuel Tiger Ram...Button of the gods....P4 supremacy...sigh...

Ah yes...Clown car snipers, SU-85/Snipers, MG42 from hell....where does time go?