A Suggestion For Panther Balance

Another golden thought from Jaigen.
You get Sherman to counter blob and 1-2mins after there is a Panther.

Then don't get shermann and use everything else. Double BAR, flames (on CE or on riflemen), scott, and so on. I'm not saying you defeat OKW blob with that, but you can resist to it a period of time and maybe win the game. I tried shermanns and I don't like them => I don't work with shermanns. Variants of shermann as buldozer or E8 appear to be more valuable in my opinion than the regular one. The only reason for which T4 should exist, is Jakson in my opinion and maybe scott (if you have enough resources).

In fact, OKW blob wouldn't even be OP if OKW wouldn't float such an amount of mp. Thing is, no matter how many obers or volks or whatever infantry models you kill, OKW will refit its squads and build new units quite easily. Here is the true problem. If you kill enough OKW infantry this should affect them badly. But this is a problem of faction design because OKW player has nothing else to spend his manpower on (cause of the fuel shortage) so he pumps obers and volks.

And if soviet can counter this pretty effectively with maxims, snipers, flamers, katys and - let's not forget - mortars especially 120 ones, those reaching and successfuly destroying even field deployed trucks, USF has no serious ballistic weapons. We can't count pack howitzer, mortar ht and scott among them because:

- OKW blob push - that can erase any gun/team crew including the pack howitzer. A couple of maxims with some mortar behind have a better chance to stop that than anemic USF HMGs that can get decrewed almost instantly.
- scott it's actually ineffective if OKW player is helped by an Ostheer player. Paks can reach scotts from far distance and you can't get to them if supported by OKW infantry. So you struggle to beat manpower units (pak and infantry) with a unit that cost manpower and fuel, and fail.
- mortar HT is pure shit and everybody knows it. In addition, it's doctrinal.

The only one remaining it's the PRIEST which is also doctrinal which is so slow and inacurate.

Another golden thought from Jaigen.
Im sure you did not lose any vehicle cause of schreck since you are playing axis only.
But if you cant kill anything with schreck as axis its big l2p issue for you.

Also Schreck->bar blob->obers->sherman->panther->jackson->Schreck blob.
Its always for axis to have last word.

To the point. Panther is tank hunter without any weak points.
Yet the biggest issue is that OKW Panther comes to early.
I mean, its medium/late unit but when rushed it comes around 14-18min (depends on map control). In team games you can get Panther around 12min which is insane.
Usually OKW panther hits the field when OST can deploy Pz4. Thats the problem. You get Sherman to counter blob and 1-2mins after there is a Panther.

How do you lose a medium tank that requires 6 hits from a shrek to be killed and has twice the speed of the volks? also your wrong about the panther it has the lowest dps of all the td's in the game. losing your tanks to one is a failure on your part.

Also a TD that comes out early means jack shit most battles at this point are fought between infantry and light vehicles the panther has zero impact on that and 1 impact if equiped with a lmg. you should be more concernced about an early luchs.

also for proper blob counter use the howie carrier its fucking awesome and can shut down the shrek blob very effectively.

A Panther can usually go chasing Allied vehicles to finish them off. Because it is not up against Schrecks, and unless it grossly overstretches, even eating an AT grenade to the face will see it reverse and live since it reliably bounces most frontal shots. Whereas against OKW, if you dare step with your armour one meter in front of your infantry screen, it's Schreck party time baby !

I also like how people suggest the use of BAR blob against OKW blob. First of all it does not work (add a squad of Obers or two, an MG34, a PzII, or a Stuka to the mix), and second of all even if it did, if I wanted to play Blob of Heroes I would have purchased that.

I'm not saying you defeat OKW blob with that, but you can resist to it a period of time and maybe win the game.

Why should the US forces be the ones RESISTING and somehow hoping to win while doing so? Why are there no threads on the forums about how OKW must RESIST the US armoured attacks and somehow hope to win while doing so?

Furthermore, how does one "win" exactly in this manner? This is not Age of Empires, there is no "Wonder" building you can build to win while turtling. You have to fight OKW on the field to control VPs.

OKW is the faction with the "Wonder" stuff, they got 2 available, KT and JT

Your Sherman is usually there to scare the Luch, problem is it doesn't do enough damage to it to be really reliable. And it does worst vs a panther.

How do you lose a medium tank that requires 6 hits from a shrek to be killed and has twice the speed of the volks? also your wrong about the panther it has the lowest dps of all the td's in the game. losing your tanks to one is a failure on your part.

Also a TD that comes out early means jack shit most battles at this point are fought between infantry and light vehicles the panther has zero impact on that and 1 impact if equiped with a lmg. you should be more concernced about an early luchs.

also for proper blob counter use the howie carrier its fucking awesome and can shut down the shrek blob very effectively.

A Volley from 3-4 Volks squad with shreks makes short of this 6 hit kill. T4 for OKW is wayyy to fast, Panther alone shuts down Medium armor play (lasts for 2-4 min) yet alone T-70 and Stuart game play (assuming mech truck).

A Volley from 3-4 Volks squad with shreks makes short of this 6 hit kill. T4 for OKW is wayyy to fast, Panther alone shuts down Medium armor play (lasts for 2-4 min) yet alone T-70 and Stuart game play (assuming mech truck).

Not just that Jaigen, the problem isnt the blob its the fact that 1-2 volks squads can take a sherman down to around half health, and then panther comes Loling in to finish off said tank, then gets away with vet.

. honestly if you cant handle an unsupported shrek blob its a L2P issue. just crush them.

nothing reliably works against a chasing panther shrek blob though, except maybe m20 mine.. the panther lives up to its name.


Panther,especially conmand panther,(big hunting cat) hunts down slow fat ugly poor Buffalo/sheep (shermans, scotts, T34s, SU85s)

A Volley from 3-4 Volks squad with shreks makes short of this 6 hit kill. T4 for OKW is wayyy to fast, Panther alone shuts down Medium armor play (lasts for 2-4 min) yet alone T-70 and Stuart game play (assuming mech truck).

Im still completely flummoxed that your first tank is the sherman and not the m36 if you know he is going for the panther. and im completely mystified that you use the sherman as a breakthrough unit like the is2. And ffs obers are potent but they are not unbeatable especially not by the bar'ed riflemen.

Im still completely flummoxed that your first tank is the sherman and not the m36 if you know he is going for the panther. and im completely mystified that you use the sherman as a breakthrough unit like the is2. And ffs obers are potent but they are not unbeatable especially not by the bar'ed riflemen.

Sherman rush is the best tactc against OKW.
Don't belivie me? Ask Cruzz.

Going for Jackson means you are preparing for long game = lose agasint OKW.
Going for Shermans means you want to close the deal and finish game before 20min. Still you can get Jackson later.
2 Shermans can wreck badly operated Volks and Obers.
2 Shermans with AP shells can also kill a Panther if not supported with Volks.


BAR Rifles can do a pudding against Obers.
Even LMG Rifles are not good enough.
Gardening squishy.

OKW is the faction with the "Wonder" stuff, they got 2 available, KT and JT

King Tiger covered by Pak43 sniping flanking Shermans/T34/Whatever
It's like doctrine with Tiger Ace and Pak43

Sherman rush is the best tactc against OKW.
Don't belivie me? Ask Cruzz.

Not everybody agrees with you and Cruzz .

2 Shermans with AP shells can also kill a Panther if not supported with Volks.

Is this your opinion only or Cruzz's opinion too?

BAR Rifles can do a pudding against Obers.

Really? How about double BARS? Is that doing something to Obers?

Not everybody agrees with you and Cruzz .

I'm not forcing anyone to rush for Sherman

Is this your opinion only or Cuzz's opinion too?

2 T34/76 can kill a Panther when flanking. Sherman is better tank so it's obviuos that 2 Shermans can kill a Panther. Of course I'm not talking about situation where you are standing at max range and fighting at front. It needs flanking and getting close.

Really? How about double BARS? Is that doing something to Obers?

I was speaking about double BARs.
Double BARs DPS at max range is ~10 and close range ~38 (whole squad, not only 2 models with BARs)
It's like Fusiliers with G43, far worse than Falsch, not to mention Obers (BARs are better than LMG only at 0-10 range).

Of course we all know when they NERFED the Panthers stupidly high frontal armor and Blitz many patchs ago...the Panther DIDNT have the stupid high Pen it has now.

They buffed the Pen to compensate, then reverted all the nerfs (that made it to be considered OP to begin with) and left the high Penetration.

Then added wonderful OKW where it can be their first vehicle.

So now not only is the Panther THE MOST POWERFUL IT HAS EVER BEEN SINCE RELEASE but its also VERY cheap for OKW in terms of teching.

I really wonder sometimes WTF people are thinking when they make balance decisions....

2 T34/76 can kill a Panther when flanking. Sherman is better tank so it's obviuos that 2 Shermans can kill a Panther. Of course I'm not talking about situation where you are standing at max range and fighting at front. It needs flanking and getting close.

Flanking and Panther shooting to another tank than these 2 .

I was speaking about double BARs.
Double BARs DPS at max range is ~10 and close range ~38 (whole squad, not only 2 models with BARs)
It's like Fusiliers with G43, far worse than Falsch, not to mention Obers (BARs are better than LMG only at 0-10 range).

If we are talking 1 rifle unit vs 1 Obers unit, for me, double Bars are working pretty well if I get close. Blob against blob, indeed, the far distance power of Obersoldaten is overwhelming and exponentially increased. God forbid they are used without A-move and focus fire on one squad at the time.

Johnny you are correct about double BAR rifles. Until the Obers get to Vet 2 and up. Then it wouldnt matter if you had 4 BARs. Obers will just melt the crap out of them. And god forbid the Obers are in cover defending....

Flanking and Panther shooting to another tank than these 2 .

I don't understand it. I mean, I do, but I don't know what are you talking about.
Alone Panther on open field will lose to 2 Shermans if 1 of them will get behind

If we are talking 1 rifle unit vs 1 Obers unit, for me, double Bars are working pretty well if I get close. Blob against blob, indeed, the far distance power of Obersoldaten is overwhelming and exponentially increased. God forbid they are used without A-move and focus fire on one squad at the time.

If you get close with double BARs without loosing health (by ambush or something) yes, you can kill OKW blob but why would you use double BARs with 38-10 DPS to get close when you can get Paras with Thompsons with 80-4 DPS.

And it's not easy to move blob in a way that your opponent wont notice this.

Penals with flamethrower can do similar or even better jon than 2x BARs.

I think he was going after the general concept of how much harder it is for Axis to replace tanks. Which I am constantly trying to figure out how that is the case but you do feel it during games. The fuel difference on some tanks compared to Allied is not alot but it still feels harder. While on USF on a strong fuel eco, shermans galore...though said shermans galore still got beat every day of the week and four times on sunday by the AXIS AT I faced (did not say i was good with usf).

they cost more and all factions (except OKW who has it worse) have the same fuel income. even though axis tanks are generally better they're harder to replace because they cost more.

it's always going to feel harder to replace your own tanks as well; that's just psychology.

Of course we all know when they NERFED the Panthers stupidly high frontal armor and Blitz many patchs ago...the Panther DIDNT have the stupid high Pen it has now.

They buffed the Pen to compensate, then reverted all the nerfs (that made it to be considered OP to begin with) and left the high Penetration.

Then added wonderful OKW where it can be their first vehicle.

So now not only is the Panther THE MOST POWERFUL IT HAS EVER BEEN SINCE RELEASE but its also VERY cheap for OKW in terms of teching.

I really wonder sometimes WTF people are thinking when they make balance decisions....

WTF are you blabbering. at one point the panther had 1280 hp 60 range and only costed 145 fuel.

Im still completely flummoxed that your first tank is the sherman and not the m36 if you know he is going for the panther. and im completely mystified that you use the sherman as a breakthrough unit like the is2. And ffs obers are potent but they are not unbeatable especially not by the bar'ed riflemen.

Yea I agree with what Australian said. Fast teching for a Sherman is the only viable way to deal with OKW infantry blobs, top of that, I cant assume OKW player will always build Panther. Yes, Sherman is def a break through tank to fight blobs with high explosive shells and squishes. Obers on the other hand cant be countered by any infantry squad USF has (not even the .50 cal), so I have to rely on Sherman. Yes I can always build Jackson after my Sherman.

paras and the m2 will counter obers but it's situation specific. also 1919s are a not-very-situation-specific counter. it is an uphill battle though.

Honestly, I am fine with the reverse speed of both Panthers.

In my opinion dealing with and countering a Panther (even with Blitz) is less hard than countering a damned Tiger I/II sitting on a fuel- or victory-point.

Edit: And I don´t say that because I like that tank regarding Avatar and Signature.

I disagree I find the tigers easier to deal with than a panther because they are actually slow enough we can move our tanks behind them in a flanking position. It is extremely hard to do that with a panther (if the player knows what he is doing) the face that it can out run shermans in reverse is just horse shit. I am not sure why the germans even make tigers to me they just have a big sign on their back that says kick me, multiple panthers however are a way bigger threat to me because there so hard to flank and kill.

Yea I agree with what Australian said. Fast teching for a Sherman is the only viable way to deal with OKW infantry blobs, top of that, I cant assume OKW player will always build Panther. Yes, Sherman is def a break through tank to fight blobs with high explosive shells and squishes. Obers on the other hand cant be countered by any infantry squad USF has (not even the .50 cal), so I have to rely on Sherman. Yes I can always build Jackson after my Sherman.

Totally agree with you problem is they always mix in shrek mobs that can almost insta kill your sherman. I think the biggest problem in the whole game is the shreks and how powerfull they are. They should be more like the zooks. You don't see german tanks running from guard troops or riflemen with zooks because they don't have to but we do makes no sense.