Remove Shreck from Volks

I still don't get why people do understand why I don't like the Puma, it's not that the unit is bad, it isn't, but it just isn't as good as the fuel and manpower you could be spending on other things like a Schwer.

The reduced fuel income for OKW makes it so a wrong choice in build order can lose you the game easily, and it would be even worse if you made OKW's base unit it relies on so much bad.

Also the idea Sturms should get the Shreks is laughable, most players wouldn't do it as those StG 44's are vital for keeping allied early game infantry at bay.

Also the idea Sturms should get the Shreks is laughable, most players wouldn't do it as those StG 44's are vital for keeping allied early game infantry at bay.

Yes, EARLY GAME. Why the hell would anyone get shrecks before medium tanks hit the field?

With Pzfausts, a better raketenwerfer and the early AT vehicles OKW can get, you probably wouldn't even need shrecks in quite a few matches.

Shrecks should be an option, not a no-brainer like it is ATM.

I agreed with you up the point about the B4.. have you never used one? They are currently the meta for 4v4 as Soviets.. Once it gets vet1 precision strike just make their blob retreat and hit their med-base and GG everything is dead.. its also good at 1 shotting tanks when they are stationary (spot it with a sniper)

I used it for 7 or 8 games, it did OK, but I found that we missed shocks and IS2.

I haven't seen one in the last 20 games or more I've played.

Even still, that's ONE off my list. The rest are either utterly useless or just mostly useless. Depressing.

Yes, EARLY GAME. Why the hell would anyone get shrecks before medium tanks hit the field?

With Pzfausts, a better raketenwerfer and the early AT vehicles OKW can get, you probably wouldn't even need shrecks in quite a few matches.

Shrecks should be an option, not a no-brainer like it is ATM.

Shreks are a vital deterrent against USF who have very fast teching which lets them get medium/light armor out on to the field quickly, the OKW's counter to this is the ability to get hand held AT out on to the field quickly. Giving a squishy expensive squad like Sturms Shreks would be like how it is for ostheer and Pgrens, Shrek dropping Christmas for your opponent.

It would also basically make Ostheer and OKW early game the same, which is so great atm right?

Shreks are a vital deterrent against USF who have very fast teching which lets them get medium/light armor out on to the field quickly, the OKW's counter to this is the ability to get hand held AT out on to the field quickly. Giving a squishy expensive squad like Sturms Shreks would be like how it is for ostheer and Pgrens, Shrek dropping Christmas for your opponent.

It would also basically make Ostheer and OKW early game the same, which is so great atm right?

OST and OKW early game the same? LOL no. OST has Kubels? PGs as starting unit? ATGs and basic inf in T0? Does OST start with enough fuel to instantly build a tech structure? (apart from T1)?

In fact, OKW early game will only benefit from those changes.

ONE OKW counter to light/medium vehicles is handheld AT at the moment because you don't need anything else. Pumas/JPIVs are enough to deal with light/medium armor (especially in conjunction with Pzfausts) - and you can get both very quickly.

Giving a "squishy" squad shrecks will stop brainless blobbing and will make them vulnerable but effective if used correctly. Expensive? I guess you pay for your first squad then? They are still less expensive to reinforce than PGs with much better vet bonuses.

One solid reason not to change it so that Sturm pios get shreks instead is that the chance of drop would be so high would it not?

OK I read everyone's comments and basically we get a list like this.

1a. Bump Volks to popcap 8.
1b. Increase Volks reinforcement cost.

2a. Slow down Volks vetting speed. They get to 5 every game because of vehicle kills. Getting to vet5 should be much harder. Give them less XP when it's the Shreks that make the kill, if possible.
2b. Change what the 5 vet levels actually buff. Long range accuracy buff for Shreks is to high and/or not needed.


3a. Reduce Shrek spam by making Obers have to buy their LMG. If all MUN is being spent on buying shreks, then OKW's anti-infantry potential should suffer late game.

4a. Shrek accuracy at long range needs to be reduced.
4b. Shreks perform to well as anti-infantry. That sniper kill shot with shreks has got to go. Logically, equipping a Volk with AT should reduce their anti-infantry DPS, not increase it.

OR an entirely different idea, which could make use of some of the options above, would be to change the Shrek upgrade to a PzB AT rifle instead. Works against light vehicles for early game AT potential, and encourages flanking Allied tanks late game to be effective. OKW has other options for late game anti-tank that they don't need Volks with shreks. Volks with PzB AT would provide support, rather then be the spearhead as they currently are.

IIRC PGs cost 42MP to reinforce and also cost you 320MP. So, Sturms are already pretty cheap.




Sturms have 13% less received accuracy, PGs have 20% less received accuracy.

Sturms get -46% received acccuracy with vet, PGs get -29% rec. acc.

PGs cost you 320MP, Sturms don't (if you don't lose them).

PGs come out later (and proably have to fight against vetted / upgraded troops) whereas Sturms are your starting infantry and can be supported by a Kubel so that they don't take too much damage.

Sturms can die just as easily as PGs. I don't understand how they are "a unit they that WILL die".

Thanks for clarifying the stats. I was mistaken on some of that. They still suffer the same issue PGs do, in that 1 tank shell can wipe them or knock them to a insta retreat state. Also what is the mp reduction rate of sturms to pgs? The first sturm is free yes but you WILL need more than one.

also the drop rate

I honestly believe the OKW in general is poorly design, but as i stated in another site i doubt relic or for that matter sega will spend money to fix the issue. So we will have to settle for tweaks, one such adjustment that i think will help the game as a whole would be removing the shrecks.

Their is still not a single good fucking argument why volks with shreks is unbalanced safe for its boring seeing them every game. if they put on the pio's they don't have the durability to properly support the badly outnumbered panther/jagd in defeating 85/e8 spam.

if you wish this the puma is going to need a penetration value similarly to m10 otherwise its borderline impossible to counter medium armor spam.

Thanks for clarifying the stats. I was mistaken on some of that. They still suffer the same issue PGs do, in that 1 tank shell can wipe them or knock them to a insta retreat state. Also what is the mp reduction rate of sturms to pgs? The first sturm is free yes but you WILL need more than one.

also the drop rate

MP reduction rate? Uhm...I think they both have a pop cap of 8.

Yes, you will probably need 2 Sturms but they're still 320MP less expensive and give you nice early game firepower.

The risk of getting wiped is higher, yes. That's good IMO. It means that you can't use them as mainline AT unit against full health tanks.

Raketenwerfers + Pzfausts + AT vehicles are your main AT units and shrecks are nothing more than support and should be used to protect other units from enemy armor rushes or to finish off almost dead tanks.

Their is still not a single good fucking argument why volks with shreks is unbalanced safe for its boring seeing them every game. if they put on the pio's they don't have the durability to properly support the badly outnumbered panther/jagd in defeating 85/e8 spam.

if you wish this the puma is going to need a penetration value similarly to m10 otherwise its borderline impossible to counter medium armor spam.

Osth counters medium armor spam just fine with PGs and Paks. Why not do the same for OKW by giving SturmPios double shreks and buff the Raket?

Osth counters medium armor spam just fine with PGs and Paks. Why not do the same for OKW by giving SturmPios double shreks and buff the Raket?

because the okw doesnt have paks. 2 the okw have a rather massive fuel penalty. 3 the okw lack medium tanks. 4. its mandatory for the okw to tech to get a panther out and cannot wait unlike the ost to stay in tier 2 for the tiger 5. for price the okw simply get shafted with the puma when compared to the m10.

Jaiden why are you saying it's mandatory for OKW to rush to get a Panther out? The theme of this whole huge thread has been the fact that Volks pretty much take care of everything. Raket AT, Jagpanther, and Volks are enough to smoke all Allied tanks. The Panther and KT are just fun toys to add, if you want to, but hardly mandatory.

The overall theme of the message here is that players would like to see OKW use a broader range of AT options per game. But if they want to maximize their win odds they will powergame and choose the build option that always works to well because Volks vet to damn fast.

After considering the comments on this thread I paid more attention to my Volks with Shreks and looked at their performance with a more critical eye. The thing that stood out to me was the range and accuracy of the Shrek. Many times you'd think the vehicle was to far away for a hand held AT weapon to target reliably, but no. The Shrek travels as far as a V2! And is laser guided to boot!

After looking at them more critically I asked myself why did Relic give these things a rifle bullet range? In real life a hand held AT weapon at that time had no where near the accuracy of a round shot through the barrel of a tank. Troops had to get up close to ensure the hand held AT weapon did not miss. We've all seen that tactic in WWII movies. Zooks and Shreks need a range nerf. It's only logical. To observe them shoot AND HIT with a range similar to that of a standard tank clearly screams nerf the range a lot.

because the okw doesnt have paks. 2 the okw have a rather massive fuel penalty. 3 the okw lack medium tanks. 4. its mandatory for the okw to tech to get a panther out and cannot wait unlike the ost to stay in tier 2 for the tiger 5. for price the okw simply get shafted with the puma when compared to the m10.

1) This is why I said buff the Raket

2) That fuel penalty doesn't change the fact they can tech fast for JagdP, Puma, Panther and KT (Not to mention mech truck's ability to speed up the process).

3) JagdP and Puma are more than enough with combined double shreked Sturm and buffed Rakt (Note Ost double shreks can handle medium tanks by themselves, combo that with Pak).

4) You dont HAVE to build a panther.

5) You are underestimating Puma vs medium armor, a well microed Puma is deadly (Combo this with double shreks and Rekt).

Just to clarify, OKW pays for the 1st Sturm. They start with less MP.

Just to clarify, OKW pays for the 1st Sturm. They start with less MP.

Well OKW does not have to worry about Vehicles at-least until 5 min mark (Only soviets T1 or USF Dodge).

1) This is why I said buff the Raket

2) That fuel penalty doesn't change the fact they can tech fast for JagdP, Puma, Panther and KT (Not to mention mech truck's ability to speed up the process).

3) JagdP and Puma are more than enough with combined double shreked Sturm and buffed Rakt (Note Ost double shreks can handle medium tanks by themselves, combo that with Pak).

4) You dont HAVE to build a panther.

5) You are underestimating Puma vs medium armor, a well microed Puma is deadly (Combo this with double shreks and Rekt).

Your being vague what are the buffs. and it will not take away the deficiency as the raket is a defensive tool

2. WTF are you blabbering about? it is simple: the allies are ALWAYS going to be able to put more armour on the field then the okw.

3. defensively yes . offensively no

4. oh but i do especially on some maps with a lot of cc.

5. oh cut it out. the okw gets shafted with puma period. compare the penetration values alone.80 for the puma at max range 140 for the m10.

The current shrek is a crutch. and a necessary one. you wish to alter the okw' AT and balance things out you need to buff other aspects and not just raketten. but if you wish to convince me show me a few replays where you are able to hold your ground against medium armour spam without shreks.

Jaiden why are you saying it's mandatory for OKW to rush to get a Panther out? The theme of this whole huge thread has been the fact that Volks pretty much take care of everything. Raket AT, Jagpanther, and Volks are enough to smoke all Allied tanks. The Panther and KT are just fun toys to add, if you want to, but hardly mandatory.

The overall theme of the message here is that players would like to see OKW use a broader range of AT options per game. But if they want to maximize their win odds they will powergame and choose the build option that always works to well because Volks vet to damn fast.

Im not going to waste much time on this: you are wrong. mind you if you put 2 shreks on the pio's they will vet even faster and they become bulletproof at vet 4.

Your being vague what are the buffs. and it will not take away the deficiency as the raket is a defensive tool

2. WTF are you blabbering about? it is simple: the allies are ALWAYS going to be able to put more armour on the field then the okw.

3. defensively yes . offensively no

4. oh but i do especially on some maps with a lot of cc.

5. oh cut it out. the okw gets shafted with puma period. compare the penetration values alone.80 for the puma at max range 140 for the m10.

The current shrek is a crutch. and a necessary one. you wish to alter the okw' AT and balance things out you need to buff other aspects and not just raketten. but if you wish to convince me show me a few replays where you are able to hold your ground against medium armour spam without shreks.

I am not advocating of eliminating Shreks from the OKW at all, and yes Allies will always have more armor than Axis. The only viable option for Shrekblobs that eliminates Medium armor game play is to give to a 4 man squad such as the SturmPios. Its absurd to give a shrek upgrade to a 235MP mainline infantry (5 man squad) that can have insane vet bonuses, not to mention there are no MP shortage for the OKW.