Remove Shreck from Volks

I don't care about OKW/Ostheer heavies, I enjoy fighting them with Shermans/Jacksons/SU-85's and it feels fine, in 2v2 I have alot of fun using dedicated TD's to fight KT/Tiger/panther etc. The issue is when the vet5 volks blob with the most powerful heat seaking missile launcher in the game comes along and wipes mediums in one volley, honestly ruins games completely - this has become the meta.

For example, non-doctrine US Main deterrent to Heavy armour is a Jackson and SU is SU-85 which does no damage to infantry.. if I invest popcap/resources into Jacksons, I lose a significant amount of my anti infantry power, and I then don't have the capabilities to stop the 30 popcap 7 squad volks horde from just running through everything killing at will.

If a smaller, more fragile unit (Say sturmpio's) had the Shreck, it would be far more balanced. Ostheer have a similar unit (Panzergrens) which you have to decide whether you want a dedicated AT unit or AI unit.. not both. This change would obviously mean the Raketenwerfer 43 could receive large buffs too.

Nah they shouldn't be removed, but just toned down in the respects of heat seaking guidance and the touch of Himmler that gives them their potency (damage). This touch also results in the shreck rockets killing soviet or us units as a sniper would.

For example, on a kv1 or IS2 they bounce quite a lot. But the medium armor, and especially the US armor, is paper thin for something like a shreck.

Raketenwerfer is horrible, stop getting it in the argument for a shreck nerf. If anything the thing needs to be removed with it's stupid ability to get in buildings. At least give the OKW something that is potent. I hardly ever see a raketenwerfer, only shrecks and I know why xd

They need to work on the veterancy of OKW units. The vet 5 is a nice idea, but it is just to potent. Vet 5 volks even get slow healing when not in combat.. come on xd

Nah they shouldn't be removed, but just toned down in the respects of heat seaking guidance and the touch of Himmler that gives them their potency (damage). This touch also results in the shreck rockets killing soviet or us units as a sniper would.

For example, on a kv1 or IS2 they bounce quite a lot. But the medium armor, and especially the US armor, is paper thin for something like a shreck.

Raketenwerfer is horrible, stop getting it in the argument for a shreck nerf. If anything the thing needs to be removed with it's stupid ability to get in buildings. At least give the OKW something that is potent. I hardly ever see a raketenwerfer, only shrecks and I know why xd

They need to work on the veterancy of OKW units. The vet 5 is a nice idea, but it is just to potent. Vet 5 volks even get slow healing when not in combat.. come on xd

Just because shrecks have a chance to bounce of IS2 armour does not mean they are balanced, by using that logic surley the zookas which bounce of p4's are broken? When I see a King Tiger/Tiger get fielded I have to be ready for it and have acceptable AT in position (Jackson, SU-85's etc).. but OKW its just mindless volks horde that counter literally the entire allied faction. Volks should have a different upgrade (MP44? LMG34, G43?) while sturmpios should have the shreck.

Volks are cheap, low pop and when they reach vet 5 (very very easy with a shreck) they are literally unkillable unless you have a dedicated blob to deal with them, makes the current meta so boring.. every single game its the same thing with OKW.

I totally agree. Double shreck upgrade for Sturms (Sturms should be able to buy both, sweepers and shrecks), Pzfaust and AI upgrade for Volks + aim time reduction for the raketenwerfer.

This is the best way to reduce shreck spam while keeping Volks relevant and also making the Raketenwerfer much more viable.

I really enjoyed playing Cruzz's Kappatch because he actually made exactly these changes.

The AI upgrade for Volks doesn't necessarily have to be a weapon upgrade though. Simply increasing their Kar98 DPS would be enough (for ammo ofc).

These shrecked sturms proposal are scarry, people please stop that. Then what would be volks for? And ruining the schreck power it's wrong, again. The problem is not the weapon, but the carrier which is to durable. Make the squad 4 instead of 5 and increase a little their health or something. That way they will still kep their performance steady in early game, but in late game they will become more vulnerable in front of vehicles (especially tanks) and AOE weapons. Blobbing will be riscky as shit.
Why don't anyone consider at this solution?

These shrecked sturms proposal are scarry, people please stop that. Then what would be volks for? And ruining the schreck power it's wrong, again. The problem is not the weapon, but the carrier which is to durable. Make the squad 4 instead of 5 and increase a little their health or something. That way they will still kep their performance steady in early game, but in late game they will become more vulnerable in front of vehicles (especially tanks) and AOE weapons. Blobbing will be riscky as shit.
Why don't anyone consider at this solution?

"Diversity"

These shrecked sturms proposal are scarry, people please stop that. Then what would be volks for? And ruining the schreck power it's wrong, again. The problem is not the weapon, but the carrier which is to durable. Make the squad 4 instead of 5 and increase a little their health or something. That way they will still kep their performance steady in early game, but in late game they will become more vulnerable in front of vehicles (especially tanks) and AOE weapons. Blobbing will be riscky as shit.
Why don't anyone consider at this solution?

This. I don't know where this idea comes from, but it's gonna be problematic, and a lot of STUMRPIONEER OP threads. It's also gonna be a lot harder to balance. They have too much utility, they have stun grenades at vet 3 and they will vet faster with schrecks, they repair, build stuff etc. So you gonna change a lot of other stuff to balance them.

Balancing Volksblob is not that hard, and there are a lot of good suggestion in the forum. Some are:
1. The one Johny said
2. Give them Pzfaust and Pzb upgrade to counter Light armor instead of melting Shermans and Jacksons, buff Raketen to compensate.
3. Tweak their vet system so they actually die at vet5, and they use the intended PzSchreck instead of Javeline missile.
4. Tweak Suppression (which is another thing but could help all 4 factions).
If you search the forums there are other good stuff, I just posted what I remember.

The question is not how to change them, the question is: Does relic want to change them? PQ said that it's hard because OKW heavily relies on them.

This. I don't know where this idea comes from, but it's gonna be problematic, and a lot of STUMRPIONEER OP threads.

I'll tell you: it's a lazy copy paste of ostheer unit.

To the topic: The problem is not volks heaving shrecks, especially as those shrecks are pretty expensive. The problem is that OKW has nothing to spend their manpower on apart from nades, mines and shrecks ofc. These are things you can easily not use and it will be even easier couse you don't need to micro your sturms placing mines and volks throwing nades, you can just focus on The Blob and also use sturms as offensive unit.

The solution is to make obers spawn with rifles only and make their lmg's an upgrade, and I mean expensive one. These are best lmg's in game so 90 muni for one seems fair. Nothing else needs to be changed. That way okw player will sacrifice lots of late game AI power by building shreck blob and that blob is really not as scary without ober support. Ofc you will still be able to have those terminators on the field but you will have to accumulate munitions and that means your volks will be left without shrecks, that is no AT an no vet 5 as it is really hard to accumulate that much xp without at weapon.

The issue is that the shrek is a big crutch for OKW and with out it OKW would struggle really hard versus medium armor because 1. the Pupchen sucks, and 2. Because the Panther is very expensive, and the Jadgpanzer isn't cheap either.

This. I don't know where this idea comes from,

The idea comes from Relic. Sturmpios were the ones with Schreck originally. It was changed mid-Alpha when the meta was much different and OKW had a much more severe ammo penalty.

but it's gonna be problematic, and a lot of STUMRPIONEER OP threads. It's also gonna be a lot harder to balance. They have too much utility, they have stun grenades at vet 3 and they will vet faster with schrecks, they repair, build stuff etc. So you gonna change a lot of other stuff to balance them.

No, I completely disagree with this. Check Sturmpio popcap and reinforce costs.

So you want 4 sturmpio squads with a schreck each? That will be more than a third of your popcap, and a 52 manpower per minute penalty included. They also reinforce at 40 per man. They would also lose some of their antiinfantry potential if they get a Schreck, and their anti infantry potential would fall off even more sharply with every squadmember down. Schrecks would be on a squishier squad that gets less defensive bonuses with veterancy.

Their versatility and utility would be a con at this point, not a pro. They can't build stuff AND detect mines AND repair stuff AND rush infantry AND attack tanks at the same time.

They should be removed and moved to another unit. Or they should adjust the shrek.

All the issues we are facing right now stems from the Shrek and the volks vet

My suggestions of OKW fix:

Make obers LMG cost munitions
Buff raketen
Nerf schreck long range accuracy
Nerf volks incoming accuracy veterancy
Decrease fuel cost of jagdpanzer

This will:

Make munitions precious making you not want to spam schrecks. And reducing the risk of a huge blob with botch epic AI (obers) and epic AT (volks).
Make volks a little bit more squishy.
Give you a reliable early game counter to light vehicles (raketen).
Give you a good medium tank counter in mid game (jagdpanzer).

The issue is that the shrek is a big crutch for OKW and with out it OKW would struggle really hard versus medium armor because 1. the Pupchen sucks, and 2. Because the Panther is very expensive, and the Jadgpanzer isn't cheap either.

The Puppchen sucks ATM. True. It needs a faster aim time. That's all. If OKW had something to slow vehicles down (Pzfausts) the Raketenwerfer would perform better.

The Jagdpanzer is cheap. You pay 175 fuel in total for a unit that counters every allied tank for a long time. A T-34/76 costs 210 fuel and performs worse in terms of AT. The PIV is more expensive and performs worse. Almost every other allied tank that performs worse in terms of AT costs more lol.

This. I don't know where this idea comes from, but it's gonna be problematic, and a lot of STUMRPIONEER OP threads. It's also gonna be a lot harder to balance. They have too much utility, they have stun grenades at vet 3 and they will vet faster with schrecks, they repair, build stuff etc. So you gonna change a lot of other stuff to balance them.

Why does this idea exist? Because it's a relatively simple solution with relatively great effect.

There's no way Sturmpios would ever become OP just because they have shrecks. They'll vet faster? Every infantry unit with AT weapons vets up much faster.

It's better to have Sturms vetting up with shrecks than Volks. They are kinda expensive and because you need them to build stuff, repair etc you can't simply chase tanks with them like you can with volks. The risk of losing them would be too high.

Volks, on the other hand, are cheap and even if you lose a squad you can always replace it, buy a shreck and watch them reaching vet 5 in a couple of minutes.

Their stun grenades are not that impressive. They deal almost no damage. With shrecks they'll have almost no AI capability and stun grenades won't change that. I can't even remember when I used those grenades the last time. I probably never did.

Shrecks on basic infantry squads are a terrible idea. Period. Volks should have Pzfausts and an AI upgrade like every other basic infantry squad.

My suggestions of OKW fix:

Make obers LMG cost munitions
Buff raketen
Nerf schreck long range accuracy
Nerf volks incoming accuracy veterancy
Decrease fuel cost of jagdpanzer

This will:

Make munitions precious making you not want to spam schrecks. And reducing the risk of a huge blob with botch epic AI (obers) and epic AT (volks).
Make volks a little bit more squishy.
Give you a reliable early game counter to light vehicles (raketen).
Give you a good medium tank counter in mid game (jagdpanzer).

This will not fix anything. as some people already said the shrek is a crutch. the okw really doesnt have good AT guns and you are forced to buy shreks.

This will not fix anything. as some people already said the shrek is a crutch. the okw really doesnt have good AT guns and you are forced to buy shreks.

That's why i think they should buff raketens and make jagdpanzer cheaper. To make them viable AT options instead of something that no one feels they can rely on. Just because schreckblobs are a "crutch" right now doesn't mean it always has to be. It's all about what other options there is.

That's why i think they should buff raketens and make jagdpanzer cheaper. To make them viable AT options instead of something that no one feels they can rely on. Just because schreckblobs are a "crutch" right now doesn't mean it always has to be. It's all about what other options there is.

Jagdpanzer is better then SU-85, why should it be cheaper? Its also earliest real TD you can get. Soviets need to get 120 fuel tech costs excluding side upgrades to get SU-85, OKW only 5.
And any meaningful buff to puppchen would equal increasing its price as its cheapest AT gun atm(which wouldn't hurt OKW with their mp float at all) unless you talk bit faster aim time.

Make the Shrek as shitty as the Zook

Give volks the option to get an AI buff

Make em choose between a piece of shit shrek, or an mp40

Well considering how hard it is to counter scout cars + flamers as it now for OKW if you want to make that even worse you could get rid of shreks.

Or how about give OKW more anti medium at options other than the Jadgpanzer which costs 265 fuel (due to reduced fuel income)

Reduce volks shreck damage to bazooka level,decrease upgrade cost slightly to compensate,that way still good vs light armor,but less so vs medium armor.Buff raketen .
This would solve problem hopefully.
Alternatively decrease volks XP gain rate and shreck long range accuracy(i.e vet accuracy bonuses don't apply for shreck)

Relic has already said they can't change how the shrek vet works for OKW with out changing the entire veteran system (which they should do) but they won't.