soviet vs okw matchup

OKW are weak as chicken piss until they can push obers and a panther out, before that it's just an uphill battle against Conspam, a clowncar and shocks(Moving on to the generic call in spam).

Are you serious?

early bullshit kubel

get 5-7 volks. ( how can u not handle conspam? if u can out spam them with volks) not to mention u have sturms

early supported flak halftrack is gg against conspamm.

for scout car, learn how to focus fire and keep ur units together for the first 10 minutes

Peaople that say OKW late game is "weak" dont know what they are talking about

Really? you have no use for a maxim to lock an area down or use a force multiplier or the indirect fire of the mortar?

Maxim is a bad investment choice if playing against OKW. It will get outflanked since OKW spams volks which btw have doctrinal building demolishing cheap assault nades. Maxim will simply end up in OKWs arsenal to be used against you.

I find M3 being good at capping the cut off point on the way from chasing down retreating squads.

Maxim is a bad investment choice if playing against OKW.

come again?! You're probably referring to one maxim and to 1v1. Because otherwise building just maxims against OKW in early game is the best investment you can think of.

Maxim is a bad investment choice if playing against OKW. It will get outflanked since OKW spams volks which btw have doctrinal building demolishing cheap assault nades. Maxim will simply end up in OKWs arsenal to be used against you.

I find M3 being good at capping the cut off point on the way from chasing down retreating squads.

They will salvage it to get KT earlier.

Maxim is a bad investment choice if playing against OKW. It will get outflanked since OKW spams volks which btw have doctrinal building demolishing cheap assault nades. Maxim will simply end up in OKWs arsenal to be used against you.

I find M3 being good at capping the cut off point on the way from chasing down retreating squads.

lol if you cannot handle the maxim i want to see you handle the mg42 against script spam.

come again?! You're probably referring to one maxim and to 1v1. Because otherwise building just maxims against OKW in early game is the best investment you can think of.

Yeah right, give map control away to volks, lose early game and GG

Yeah right, give map control away to volks, lose early game and GG

He's not kidding. Coordinated maxim spam in team games can lock okw out of an area. Back it up with an at gun. Wait for stuka to clear it out but that takes time.

in a 1v1..its not as strong and I can see the bad investment there.

maxims hard counter volks. you can't flank maxims due to their rotation and setup/teardown times. it's OKW's vehicles (flaktrack/stuka and higher) an obers that give maxims trouble. if you only build 2 or 3 though and are prepared to get rid of them late game when their hard counters come out it doesn't matter as much though.

This is going to be a long read guys... just bear with me.

I have many problems facing OKW against soviets. The only real luck I've had is just rushing a scout car as fast as possible, getting flames on a penal squad, and hoping to kill retreating squads with fire and the sc.

It just doesn't work very well because even if you wipe squads, they just build more volks (They only cost 235, which to me is far too cheap for what you get with them). Penals can barely handle them alone in the early game and they cost 35 more mp (Penals seriously need to come down in price around 15-20mp). Volks also get cold immunity for some reason with panzershreks, which doesn't seem like that big of an advantage, but it really is. You don't need to seek shelter of a fire, and if you forget about your troops while microing your units somewhere else, they won't die.

One thing that really infuriates me is the Schwerer Panzer HQ. Its range, its firepower, and its instant pin abilities are just broken as hell. It just ruins many maps, especially when you have multiple OKW players rushing the truck.

Another inconsistency is how easy it is for OKW players to field units far ahead of soviet players. The Flak HQ cost 200mp, 80 fuel, and the mechanized regiment is only 40 fuel. That means if the OKW player did not get a kubel, he only need spend 110 fuel for a Puma, or 130 for a luchs. Now think about it this way, a soviet player that goes t3 has to invest 140 fuel for just the building to get a counter to the luchs, then another 100 fuel for a t34 or 120 fuel for an su85. That's over ~250 fuel just to counter a OKW vehicle (mind you, the Puma can hold its own against a T-34 easily, especially when supported by a single volk shrek squad). Even the flak sd.kfz 251/17 only costs 105 fuel to fuel total, and comes out within the first few minutes of the game.

Now what other options do soviets have to counter vehicles? Guards? A shitty AT gun? AT gun is obviously the most viable, but if you went T1 it will mean an even longer delay to get vehicles for your army, and a stationary AT gun isn't much use when you have volks and sturmpios blobbing towards your only AT defense. Sure, maybe you could get conscripts with AT nades and invest 25 fuel for that, meaning you're still delayed in getting your most important buildings up, and the AT nades probably won't do anything but slow them down a little bit (if you can even get your cons in range of their vehicles that is).Even if you did for some reason go T2, the OKW player will obviously counter with an early Stuka, (only costing them 140 fuel to fuel total)

Let's also look at the basic buildings for each faction - Soviets can build 14 units total from their buildings. OKW can build 15 overall. The thing of it is, soviets NEVER build more than two buildings, while OKW almost always gets all three in the process of the match. This means soviets are more likely only going to have a variety of 8 units in a single match, vs. 12-15 for OKW. They just have an unlimited ability to counter whatever you have. Since the trucks always spawn, there's always incentive to deploy them quickly. How many of the soviet units are useless? Hmm. Su-76 is garbage in most scenarios, the T-70 is also garbage and takes too long to get out when you could just get a t-34 for 30 more fuel, the Halftrack is incredibly situational... now what about OKW? The infrared sd.kfz 251? Yeah, that's about it. Every other unit is worth building and viable sand maybe the Sturmtiger.

This also makes soviets incredibly predictable. You have two choices: T1 or T2, then T3 or T4. If you go T3 you're obviously rushing a T34 quickly. If you go T4 it's either the katyusha to deal with blobs, or a Su-85 for armor. Most of the time a katyusha won't be useful if they have a luchs or some other sort of light armor that can flank and kill it quickly, so usually su85 is build first. Mind you, an su-85 will likely be coming out right when OKW is getting ready to get a panther. If they see you have an Su-85, the most likely course of action will be to blob a group of shrek volks at it. When you FINALLY get 240 fuel to fuel something like an IS2 or ISU, you can at least square off against a panther, but you are still likely going to lose every time as the IS2 has shit accuracy and shit penetration vs. a panther.

The match up is just incredibly unbalanced in all game modes. Soviets have a very slight advantage in the beginning of the game if you can get a scout car out very fast to counter kubels and just drive their infantry off the map, but once they get shreks or god forbid a puma your strategy comes crumbling down.

The advantages are obvious, but what is to be done? Nothing. The only thing Relic can really do is essentially place a band-aid (their "balance" patches) over an open wound. Relic will do nothing as usual because they clearly have given up on this game. It will never be as big and competitive as they want it to be because they can never balance this game to the point where it's truly competitive. I still enjoy playing the game obviously, but it's always going to be flawed unless they rework the balance from the ground up.

^^

Totally agree.

My biggest issue personally with OKW is not that particular units are unbeatable or something (because they aren't, let's face it, and there are counters). It's that the OKW player can make piles of mistakes and still have a chance of winning mid game or late game. Meanwhile the Soviets, if they stuff up just once, will be rolled over late game by the blobs and the Heavy tanks.
That's the issue here, not that certain units are OP, sure, those units being OP doesn't make things any easier, but the fact that Soviets can't afford a) to have a bad early game and b) to make many mistakes, whilst OKW can, is simply ridiculously unfair.
Once again, Soviets are shafted into boring strats and a meta that doesn't reward skill, just right doctrine choice. It's absolutely pitiful faction design. Don't get me started on OKW's faults...

^^

Totally agree.

My biggest issue personally with OKW is not that particular units are unbeatable or something (because they aren't, let's face it, and there are counters). It's that the OKW player can make piles of mistakes and still have a chance of winning mid game or late game. Meanwhile the Soviets, if they stuff up just once, will be rolled over late game by the blobs and the Heavy tanks.
That's the issue here, not that certain units are OP, sure, those units being OP doesn't make things any easier, but the fact that Soviets can't afford a) to have a bad early game and b) to make many mistakes, whilst OKW can, is simply ridiculously unfair.
Once again, Soviets are shafted into boring strats and a meta that doesn't reward skill, just right doctrine choice. It's absolutely pitiful faction design. Don't get me started on OKW's faults...

Mate what the fuck are you talking about? how is it so that okw can make mistakes when they have far less resources and volks brutally rely on their vet to remain competitive.

B4 was the great equaliser for late game soviets in team-games, but at some point over Christmas the 2v2 playerbase wised up to it and now I see stukka doctrines from Ost in pretty much every match if they suspect we're going B4.

If u use soviets properly. they can rape.

My main problem with okw is past a certain point. Your infantry simply cannont compete. Even on a basic level. So you have to go for scout car and hope for early wipes

Get double or even tripple sniper. Get katy to punish blob. Wait for call-ins

Reapeat.

If you even try to deviate from the meta. You get punished hard.

Ive beaten many as OKW an forgot to choose a commander. OKW is simply the worst decisions relic has ever made in terms of faction design.

Yea i said it. Even worse than brits

Mate what the fuck are you talking about? how is it so that okw can make mistakes when they have far less resources and volks brutally rely on their vet to remain competitive.

If this came from any other poster, I would explain my reasoning. For you, who has shown such a contempt for other factions and what actually happens during a game, I won't bother.

I recommend using a T-70 as a way of scaring off the overs. You may argue that it'll just get sniped by a Panther. This can be avoided by using the T-70 not as a front line tank, but as a flank harassment tank. When your opponent tries to cap a point on the edge of the map, this is when the T-70 works its magic. Even if it's a Volks squad with a shrek, proper micro can render it useless.

As for the rest of the strategy, I use AT guns, mgs, and mortars to establish a strong front and then I mine my flanks. An mg in the right building or in heavy cover is a great way to hold ground. My commander is the one with shocks and the IS-2. Great doctrine IMO. Use conscripts early game and use shocks for a strong late game presence. One thing I've found very useful is constantly lay down trip wire flares. Given that the OKW has such expensive infantry, this will inflict a substantial amount of manpower bleed. Basically what I do is wait for my opponent to make a mistake and then capitalize on this.
Here's my replay: http://www.coh2.org/replay/30242/fun-1v1-with-t34-crushes-and-vet-5-obers

^^

Totally agree.

My biggest issue personally with OKW is not that particular units are unbeatable or something (because they aren't, let's face it, and there are counters). It's that the OKW player can make piles of mistakes and still have a chance of winning mid game or late game. Meanwhile the Soviets, if they stuff up just once, will be rolled over late game by the blobs and the Heavy tanks.
That's the issue here, not that certain units are OP, sure, those units being OP doesn't make things any easier, but the fact that Soviets can't afford a) to have a bad early game and b) to make many mistakes, whilst OKW can, is simply ridiculously unfair.
Once again, Soviets are shafted into boring strats and a meta that doesn't reward skill, just right doctrine choice. It's absolutely pitiful faction design. Don't get me started on OKW's faults...

That's strange, because before WFA that was exactly the soviet faction's problem. Piles of mistakes and still win in front of Ostheer. Could they have a taste now from their own medicine? I tend to say yes, because OKW has a simple build order, simple and efficient, that can counter most of the soviet shit and dominate them. What none of you guys mentioned is that OKW has a weak point. Didn't you observe that most of okw players like to start with T2 (the jagdpanzer building)? This creates the premises for a strong gameplay in late game but makes the OKW player temporarely vulnerable in early game, where you can quickly pump some T34 + T70 or 2 T34s and whipe him of the map. 2 shrecks won't stop that, and you know it. That is exactly the reason for which in 1v1 I almost allways start with T3 (the puma building). This strategy has its own disadvantages, you can't push your buldings (trucks) to far outside the base except T4, but gives you a quick and mobile AT counter to compensate. But hey, even in a T3 start case the soviet player has a good chance, IF he started with T2. So see? It's a matter of inspiration good play and experience.

If this came from any other poster, I would explain my reasoning. For you, who has shown such a contempt for other factions and what actually happens during a game, I won't bother.

Good that means less worthless nonsense from you. But its clear these forums have a massively pro allies bias. Their is in fact only 1 faction that's currently UP that's the ostheer (and it proven in the statistics). but you and the rest of the fangirls have now complained that every single okw unit is OP safe for the infra red HT. These forums for the most part a joke with people like you in it.

That's strange, because before WFA that was exactly the soviet faction's problem. Piles of mistakes and still win in front of Ostheer. Could they have a taste now from their own medicine? I tend to say yes, because OKW has a simple build order, simple and efficient, that can counter most of the soviet shit and dominate them. What none of you guys mentioned is that OKW has a weak point. Didn't you observe that most of okw players like to start with T2 (the jagdpanzer building)? This creates the premises for a strong gameplay in late game but makes the OKW player temporarely vulnerable in early game, where you can quickly pump some T34 + T70 or 2 T34s and whipe him of the map. 2 shrecks won't stop that, and you know it. That is exactly the reason for which in 1v1 I almost allways start with T3 (the puma building). This strategy has its own disadvantages, you can't push your buldings (trucks) to far outside the base except T4, but gives you a quick and mobile AT counter to compensate. But hey, even in a T3 start case the soviet player has a good chance, IF he started with T2. So see? It's a matter of inspiration good play and experience.

"where you can quickly pump some t34 + t170 or 2 t34s" You know how much fuel that costs xd? Tech costs are killing the Soviet faction when it faces the OKW. Only call ins and very very very good play from an Soviet player can save their game. OKW players can make millions of mistakes and come back. Face it, the faction is rotten.

The same thing happens with the Ostheer/Wehrmacht when it faces the US blob of doom. You make one mistake, you are done for.

The game was unbalanced before the Western Front Armies release, but the state of balance since the release of Western Front Armies makes pre release balance look godlike

safe for the infra red HT.

I'm sorry but you are mistaking. It was at least one thread no longer than maybe 2 months ago about the fact that the infrared HT is OP and I mean it.

In fact, what makes OKW OP (if we are to take the biggest part of the opinions here)? Maybe as someone said, it's not about the units, they are fine all in all, but about the quantity of micro that involves an OKW play compared to the quantity of micro required by the other factions. That's the hardest part to detect in all OP-ness manifestations.

Anyway, some things in OKW faction are requiring fixes or re-thinking. I am verry verry curious how Relic will further balance this faction. Let's face it, USF and OKW are the newest factions. How much time did they need to fix and balance the other 2? Before WFA I think they were somewhat balanced, but now.... poor Ostheer it's UP like shit. And USF it's almost as shitty as Ostheer, only that they become like that in late game.

Some statistics from coh2 leaderboards.
Win/lose ratio for all games by top 25 ranked players.

	1v1	2v2	3v3	4v4
sov	2,9	1,6	1,4	1,4
ost	2,8	1,7	2,3	2,5
okw	3,4	3,2	4,2	5,2
usf	3,3	2	2	1,5