Ideas for PE/Brits rework

You got me wrong. Even if i quote your post my post wasn't addressed to you. I addressed everyone who took part in this discussion because this is your list which does´not mean that every else aggress with every point on the list or has some other things to add.

To fix this issue, all you need to do is to modify the hitpoints from pgrens and tweak the reinforcing costs.

I, uh, did that? Panzer Grenadiers have 80HP, infantry armour, and cost 40MP to reinforce.

2) blobbing bonuses

Fixed. Zeal and shared vet are gone.

3) weakness to early tanks/light vehicles

ATHT got buffed and moved to T1. Panzershrecks are still there. Marders are cheaper than they were before.

Pantherspam in teamgames/getting heavy tanks without limit for manpower only

Panthers now cost 600MP and 110 Fuel?

5) No real anti-blob weapons apart from sector arty/Hummel (so limited to 1 doc

I added non-doctrinal Panzerwerfer. Flakpanzer is pretty good vs. blobs too because of its firing range in lockdown. I considered adding a suppression ability to the Scout/Armoured Car but opted against it thing as that unit's pretty strong anyways.

broken vet system (defensive vet always better than offensive vet, especially for vehicles)

I nerfed vehicle defensive vet. No longer gives speed bonuses. Not totally fixed, but a start.

7) Ketten OP with hidden detection, fast movement and sdkfz22x armourtype.

Ketten can't go invisible any longer. I'll change the armourtype next release.

Not trying to be rude here, but did you even play my mod before calling it lackluster? Telling me that I should change the armour type of Panzer Grenadiers when I've already done that seems to suggest that you didn't.

Well, I played a game vs. AI, after seeing 4men gren squads and vehicles being still vulnerable to small arms I left tbh. Just didn't feel right. Maybe I'll give it another shot sometime.

Well, I played a game vs. AI, after seeing 4men gren squads and vehicles being still vulnerable to small arms I left tbh. Just didn't feel right. Maybe I'll give it another shot sometime.

I'll play you if you ever want to.

In general what I don't like about your mod Carlos is you bring too much new content and remove too much old content. Which is your right as it's a mod. But it makes it hard to consider as a balance rework. It's more of 'new faction heavily inspired by PE' kinda thing. Especially the removal of the PIV and Luft doctrine I don't understand. Well with most doctrine stuff you went a little wild

I, uh, did that? Panzer Grenadiers have 80HP, infantry armour, and cost 40MP to reinforce.

That's a huge buff though. Whilst Soldier armor is much superior vs mg type weapons, it's not that much better vs standard weapons. Not to mention the most standard weapon the Garand: 0.75x accuracy bonus opposed to infantry.

Quick math learns: 55(Old PG HP) / 0.75 (Soldier armor) = 73.3333 effective HP.

So they are a lot stronger early game and cost LESS to reinforce.

vehicles being still vulnerable to small arms

well they will always have to be though. I have to admit Kiraye's solution is the best one in theory.

broken vet system (defensive vet always better than offensive vet, especially for vehicles)

The problem with this is Vet 1 defensive bonus mostly being superior to ALL bonuses.

Btw Offensive veterancy is broken/bugged on standard infantry: it actually applies double the bonuses. If you have played with vet 3 G43 pg's you should know this ...

That's a huge buff though. Whilst Soldier armor is much superior vs mg type weapons, it's not that much better vs standard weapons. Not to mention the most standard weapon the Garand: 0.75x accuracy bonus opposed to infantry.

Quick math learns: 55(Old PG HP) / 0.75 (Soldier armor) = 73.3333 effective HP.

Yeah, but I've got them using Volksgrenadier K98Ks, so a basic Panzer Grenadier squad's damage output is actually lower than a Volksgrenadier squad right now. Anyways, from the testing I've done, they beat Rifles at range and lose close-up. That's, IMO, fine.

Vehicles being vulnerable to small arms is probably unfixable. If you make them invulnerable or basically invulnerable to small-arms, they have to arrive later. Which means that Panzer Grenadier spam is the only viable early-game tactic for the Panzer Elite.

Doctrine changes I've actually made at this point:

- Tank awareness got replaced with AT Grenades.
- APCR rounds is now an active ability for the Jagdpanther, Panther, Marder, and Hetzer (identical to AP rounds for the US 57mm)
- Hetzer call-in got reduced to 500MP from 600MP
- Double-AT Efforts got replaced with the Henschel tankbuster call-in.
- Booby trap building got replaced with Incendiary munitions, which enables Incendiary Grenades for Panzer Grenadiers and the Incendiary Barrage for the Mortar Halftrack (and, in the future, the Panzerwerfer).

New version:

http://www.gamefront.com/files/24778945/Redesigned+Panzer+Elite+Mod.zip

Fixed some UI stuff. Nerfed Armoured Car coaxial MG42. Panzer Grenadiers now require a cheap upgrade from the HQ before they can repair vehicles. Armoured Car can't detect camouflaged units by default any longer, but has an ability that allows it to do so.

I know this topic has gone by the wayside, but I've still been screwing around with my PE mod and making changes. Some highlights and, after a bunch of matches with the AI, some thoughts:

In general, I feel the faction has become stronger with my changes. They're less gimmicky and less reliant on bullshit, but I think that you have a lot more flexibility now - more ways to approach the game. For instance, I think going T1 to T2 or T2 to T1 is actually pretty viable. Also, you aren't forced to tech to T3 or T4 immediately. You can play the first two tiers for quite a while into a match. Sort of like Wehr being able to sit on T2 for a whole game.

I gave some thought to how the PE should be able to deal with blobs and came up with two solutions, one of which will undoubtedly be super-controversial, but I like it. The first change is I gave the PE a new MG42-equipped Schwimmwagen at T2. It has an ability called "Overfire," which allows the vehicle to temporarily suppress enemy infantry (the ability works almost exactly like Riflemen Suppressive Fire). This second change I made was I got rid of the Panzer Grenadier Gewehr 43 upgrade an replaced it with an LMG42 upgrade. I changed the stats of the LMG42 and, among other changes, significantly increased its suppression. After two or three bursts, this weapon will now suppress enemies that aren't in cover (although it's not nearly potent as an actual HMG).

I really like how the Light-Anti Tank Halftrack works now. Its gun is way better against vehicles now - it will reliably penetrate virtually everything and does decent damage - but you can't use Treadbreak any longer. It will beat an M8 in a slugfest but is vulnerable to circle-strafing. Sort of like the current Marder vs. Stuart matchup. So you'd better use your micro skills.

Here's the current tech-tree, with a few notes, for those interested:

HQ

Units:

- Panzer Grenadiers (320MP) - Four guys, lots of health but low DPS without upgrades; gets health regen at Vet 1 (regardless of offensive or defensive choice)
- Kettengrad (150MP) - Caps stuff, can lay mines
- Logistiks Halftrack (250MP) - Secures sectors, can deploy Goliaths

Upgrades:

- Mechanical Training Upgrade (150MP, 10F)
Allows Panzer Grenadiers to repair damaged vehicles

T1 - Leichte-Panzer Kommand (220MP, 20F)

Units:

- Scout Car (250MP, 20F) - Can detect snipers when using "Recon Tactics" ability; can be upgraded with autocannon
- Mortar Halftrack (250MP, 40F) - Can now fire smoke rounds
- Light-Anti-Tank Halftrack (250MP, 20F) - Can fire Stielgranate 41 rounds, which are like super-Panzerfausts; no more Treadbreaker; gun much-improved

Upgrades:

- KwK30 2cm Autocannon Upgrade (150MP, 40F)
Unlocks autocannon upgrade for Scout Car; costs an additional 50 munitions per-vehicle

T2 - Infanterie Kommand (220MP, 20F)

Units:

- Schwimmwagen (250MP) - Can suppress infantry when using "Overfire" ability
- Infantry Halftrack (250MP, 25F) - Can now cap while garrisoned like Bren Carrier; gun slightly nerfed

Upgrades:

- Advanced Small Arms (150MP, 50F)
Unlocks MP44, MG42, and Panzerschreck upgrades for Panzer Grenadiers; LMG can suppress stuff
- Stick Grenades (150MP, 30F)
Unlocks Model 24 grenades for Panzer Grenadiers
- Halftrack Medical Supplies (150MP, 20F)
Allows the Infantry Halftrack to heal nearby infantry

T3 - Support-Panzer Kommand (220MP, 90F)

Units:

- Flakpanzer 38(t) (300MP, 30F) - Can lockdown for better reload speed and accuracy
- Marder III (300MP, 30F)
- Panzerwerfer 42 Rocket Artillery Halftrack (250MP, 50F)

Upgrades:

- Support Panzer Upgrade (200MP, 50F)
Unlocks the Panzerwerfer 42

T4 - Schwerer Panzer Kommand (220MP, 90F)

Units:

- Hotchkiss Tank (280MP, 45F) - Can now deploy defensive smoke; no more Walking Stuka upgrade
- Bergetiger
- Panther Tank (600MP, 110F) - Skirts and turret gun now purchased with munitions

Upgrades:

- Schwerer Panzer Upgrade (200MP, 50F)
Unlocks the Panther Tank

Hello, as an ex level 20 PE Player in 1v1 and 2v2AT I would be interested in contributing ideas and helping play test the mods you're creating

Add me on steam... my name is Nosliw. You can find me If you look at the 1v1 ladder

BTW the one thing that stands out and seems strange to me is why PGs combat effectiveness is less than volksgrenadier now? In my opinion if you want to nerf their combat effectiness you'd only have to add a requirement to the G43 upgrade since that's the only thing that makes PGs effective against riflemen or infantry sections in the first place. That upgrade is a staple of the PE doctrine and removing it is mistake. If I would Make the changes I'd simply increase pg cost and squad size as you dsid, leave them with their old Kar 98k rifles, and move the G43 upgrade to require t1 or t2

Yeah, but I've got them using Volksgrenadier K98Ks, so a basic Panzer Grenadier squad's damage output is actually lower than a Volksgrenadier squad right now. Anyways, from the testing I've done, they beat Rifles at range and lose close-up. That's, IMO, fine..

This seems wrong to me. If PGS are more expensive than volksgrenadiers and have fewer men they should be better. The biggest issue I see is making PGs will barely be able to hold riflemen back. Add in a few flame squads and PGs will get owned. Think of how PE will perform 4 minutes into the game when they get rushed by 3 or 4 riflemen and a flamer squad. Vanilla PGs can't stand up to that and relying on vehicular suppression seems gimicky. Just think of how even top Wehrmacht players struggle to hold off rifle flanks with Volks and MG42s. Now imagine holding off that flank with expensive, low combat effective PGs with vehicles supporting which can get overwhelmed and stickied... just my two cents at the moment. I should download and play against some good players to really see how it plays out

Also, one lAst thing. At the top level of PE play, the goal is to survive with good map control until mid game and have a unit composition consisting of armored cars to kill riflemen and hold the map, get atht to deal with the m8, and get mortar the to deal with at guns. With your faction design as it is, you have all 3 of the vehicles pe currently needs mid game to deal effectively with all American units from t1 and t3 available from t1. With this faction design I see no reason why I'd need to do anything other than spam PGs with lmg42s and stay t1 to spam armored cars and athts

Sorry for the late reply - here's the current version:

http://www.gamefront.com/files/24912228/Redesigned+PE+Mod.zip

Just ignore the doctrinal changes for now. Also, the Bergetiger isn't going to work properly and the Panzer Elite AI doesn't really work either.

so basically you are ripping PE apart and make a COH2 ostheer faction out of it?

and still no single idea for BRITS? i mean, this faction should be fixed first of all!

in 1v1 kind of UP when players dont use stags and in 2v2 just OP.. hardest work guys, better start with it, instead of destroying PE.

PE isnt OP in any way(it may has its weird abilities, but just watch the leaderboard to see it is not OP)

PE has broken features. If you abuse them you can win. If you don't you loose with a pretty high chance. This makes up for predictable gameplay.

Of course brits need a redesign more importantly, but they also need much more drastic changes, which involves a lot of work. We're working on concepts for them since quite a while, and I can assure you that it's not an easy task.

PE has broken features. If you abuse them you can win. If you don't you loose with a pretty high chance. This makes up for predictable gameplay.

Of course brits need a redesign more importantly, but they also need much more drastic changes, which involves a lot of work. We're working on concepts for them since quite a while, and I can assure you that it's not an easy task.

For British I really liked the general ideas of Kolaris, to make trucks not move at the start of the game and make British infantry 'lighter'. (more mobile, more vulnerable)

Also buffing rifle grenades against elite armor would be a great improvement ... why does it have penalties anyways?

Note: this patch was pre 2.602

I like the sturdy infantry, makes a nice difference to american throw-away units. The HQ truck should be replaced by a regular HQ imo. The trucks could still be used as buildings, but not from the start.

so basically you are ripping PE apart and make a COH2 ostheer faction out of it?

No. Just no.

I like the sturdy infantry, makes a nice difference to american throw-away units. The HQ truck should be replaced by a regular HQ imo. The trucks could still be used as buildings, but not from the start.

They'd still have soldiers armor and more HP than rifles, keeping them hella sturdy. But it would be a chance for mainly volks to fight back. And like making them more mobile gives an opportunity to flank MG's.

Currently there is hardly need to flank: just walk up to them and focus fire . (u really like that gameplay?)

I agree with the idea that Brits should have an HQ as their starting building. Either that or make the Tier 0 truck unmoveable. I'd also give the British an extra tier to choose from in mid-game, an alternative to the Support Truck. This will make their teching less linear. Also, do not make building an officer a requirement to tech up.

Adding a 6-pounder, that is 57 mm ATG, would be a nice thing too. Maybe also a Vickers machinegun, with narrower field of fire than .30 cal, but with longer range. Trenches could probably come from a doctrine, RSE to be precise. I'd also scale down the bonuses that British infantry receives in them and also made them undeletable. You can't delete tank traps or sandbag either and they can be used against you as well.