Ideas for PE/Brits rework

Ready?!

Go.

what u mean?

So I had actually spent a significant amount of time working on this particular idea a few months ago. I coded a ton of changes to the Panzer Elite with the intention of making their design more flexible, fun, and balanced and then releasing the results as mod. Mostly I moved units around and added and removed some stuff. I haven't made any changes to the British faction yet because I feel their faction design is so flawed they need a complete overhaul and doing that is beyond my limited modding abilities.

Here are some of the big, highlight changes I made to the Panzer Elite:

- Almost all the upgrades for Panzer Grenadiers (eg Field Craft) got removed. Panzer Grenadiers got lots of buffs to compensate (eg cap rate is now 1x and squad size got increased to four men) and their price got increased to 360MP.
- Armoured Cars got removed. Instead players can buy an Autocannon upgrade for the Scout Car.
- Added Panzerwerfer rocket artillery halftrack to T3.
- Panther tanks can now be bought from T4
- Shared vet is gone
- Munitions system is gone
- Lots of semi-bullshit abilities, like Treadbreaker and Overdrive, got removed
- T1 (light vehicle-focused) now builds Scout Car, Light AT Halftrack, and Mortar Halftrack
- T2 (infantry-focused) now builds Infantry Halftrack and has lots of upgrades for Panzer Grenadiers
- T3 and T4 now cost way more fuel, but Marders and Hotchkisses don't require upgrades to buy any longer
- Panzer Grenadiers no longer use Soldier armour

I made a handful of changes designed to increase historical realism or improve the faction's aesthetics. For instance, the Panzer IV stubby is gone because I felt it wasn't historically accurate and I wanted to replace the Hummel with a Grille because the PE have a lot of vehicles using the Panzer 38(t) chassis. There are also a bunch of changes, particularly involving doctrines and new vehicles that I wanted to add (eg Flakpanzer 38(t)), that I haven't made or aren't entirely sure about. You'll also notice that I intended to remove the Luftwaffe doctrine and completely overhaul Scorched Earth, which might be a little extreme.

I haven't played with these changes too much, but I can say that they felt reasonably balanced and definitely don't make the faction unplayable.

Anyways, this is the changelog I made. It's probably incomprehensible and it's not exactly complete, but you should be able to make out some of the changes I made or intended to make to the Panzer Elite faction.


https://docs.google.com/document/d/11VsvBAMHr2YT2qoBrz1Q4uQQMaGAlBA1SrCoSG5uAY4/edit?usp=sharing

Hmm it sounds like you removed A LOT though... this could make the game very pale. And leave the PE without typical characteristics.

But I do get the point that you wanted to get rid off all the bullshit

Hmm it sounds like you removed A LOT though... this could make the game very pale. And leave the PE without typical characteristics.

But I do get the point that you wanted to get rid off all the bullshit

lol!

Well, it's actually interesting that Carlos adjusted quite a few stuff in his concept which I also thought about in a similar manner.

Currently I'm rethinking the way PE uses their vehicles/upgrade system. The idea of putting the light AT HT into t1 is actually a very good idea, I had something like that in my mind, also at some point. Also, the 221-222 upgrade system makes a lot of sense. Same with Pgren health adjustments and the long barrel pIV.

This is what came into my mind for PE ideas after some discussions with GeneralCH and reading in this thread:

Panther battlegroup removed
warning shot removed
treadbreak removed
group zeal reworked
vet sergeant reworked
overdrive reworked (engine needs to cooldown after usage, and ability lasts only 10secs instead of 30)
stg44 costs 100 ammo instead of 75
Sprint reworked - easier available, no supression resistance anymore
Upgrades like improved repairs etc. could be kept the way they are, just shifted around in the tiers accordingly.

vet changes:
def vet for vehicles no longer gives more speed, instead better acceleration/deceleration
off vet adds range bonus for vehicles

for infantry:
def vet remains the same
off vet also remains the same

Teching: t1/t2-t3/t4
Starting res: 400mp, 15f
Tier 0:
Pgrens (more base health, 60-65 hp/man instead of 55, cost increase to 270)
ketten/schwimm (gets motorbike armourtype like schwimm/bike, increased health to compensate)
nades (cost reduced to 120mp/15f)

Tier 1: 150mp/15f
scout car 221 - can't capture sectors anymore (upgrade to 2cm 222 requires teching)
muni ht
reworked at ht (requires teching) - at ht can switch between he and ap shells, he shells have less range, are less accurate, but reliably kill infantry. ap gives more range, better accuracy & dmg vs. vehicles. overall increased damage)
tech costs 100mp/30f)

Tier 2: 200mp/45f
Halftrack (stubby/mortar upgrade requires teching)
assgrens (requires teching)
upgrade 150mp/30f unlocks mortar/stubby/assgrens+stg44

Tier 3: 220mp/30f (unlocks schrecks)
at grens
vampir ht
puma 50mm (requires teching)
marder (requires teching)
tech 100mp/30-40f

Tier 4: 220mp/80f (possibly could also unlock Schrecks)
bergetiger
pIV (upgrade to long barrel after teching)
Sturmpanzer IV (requires teching)
tech 200mp/40-60f

I haven't made any changes to the British faction yet because I feel their faction design is so flawed they need a complete overhaul and doing that is beyond my limited modding abilities.

Well if all the changes you made to PE are not considered a complete overhaul, I am curios what falls under that category by your standards, because reading through these changes, this is a complete overhaul.

Well if all the changes you made to PE are not considered a complete overhaul, I am curios what falls under that category by your standards, because reading through these changes, this is a complete overhaul.

In my limited playing experience, despite the enormous number of changes I made to the faction, the Panzer Elite still feel like the Panzer Elite from the vanilla game. They're still a fast, aggressive army built around vehicles.

In contrast, I feel an overhaul of the British faction would, by necessity, involve eliminating the truck system and their penchant for static emplacements. Replacing those two systems with alternatives would involve a tremendous amount of work and would change the fundamental nature of the faction.

Anyways, I approached my Panzer Elite redesign with a couple of objectives. For example:

- Make blobbing less effective (that's why Group Zeal and shared vet are gone)
- Remove contentious BS abilities (that's why Treadbreaker's gone)
- Make the faction more mobile (that's why healing duties are primarily performed by Infantry Halftracks now)
- Eliminate somewhat gimmicky strategies like Armored Car rushes and make the faction tech more fluidly


The other concern that came up was that I removed too many units/upgrades. I also thought this was going to be a problem when I made the changes, but I didn't really notice it playing the game. The Munitions Halftrack and Vampire Halftrack, which got removed, are both non-combat units. The Panzer IV is gone but the Hotchkiss is still there. The Armoured Car is only gone on paper. On the other hand, I added a Panzerwerfer halftrack, which has obvious combat value, and a halftrack that can secure points.

i never heared so an bullshit

pabther battleroup removed and some more
group zeal????
u know that an american can tech bars and some other so u need group zeal.
Pe is not op only strong when u can handle a pe player it is very easy too win againts it
when i read it

vet on vehicles give not more speed
pe has now no heavy tank????
i think u play 2 much coh2 and u will reperform the okw


pe is a nice faction too play it makes fun and u need many skill and micro for it

stg cost 100 ammo??? wtf
Luftdoctrine removed??? WTF 1 of the best doc
i think u really not like fallschirmjäger...


PLEASE STOP WRITE SO AN BULLSHIT WHEN RELIC WILL DO EVER A NEW PATCH I HOPE THEY NOT READ THIS OR CLICK ON UR LINK

i never heared so an bullshit

pabther battleroup removed and some more
group zeal????
u know that an american can tech bars and some other so u need group zeal.
Pe is not op only strong when u can handle a pe player it is very easy too win againts it
when i read it

vet on vehicles give not more speed
pe has now no heavy tank????
i think u play 2 much coh2 and u will reperform the okw


pe is a nice faction too play it makes fun and u need many skill and micro for it

stg cost 100 ammo??? wtf
Luftdoctrine removed??? WTF 1 off the best doc
i think u really not like fallschirmjäger...


PLEASE STOP WRITE SO AN BULLSHIT WHEN RELIC WILL DO EVER A NEW PATCH I HOPE THEY NOT READ THIS OR CLICK ON UR LINK

PE can buy Panthers from T4 like the Wehr now because the Battlegroup was, IMO, dumb. Zeal is gone but Panzer Grenadiers have a lot more health instead (without upgrades, they're basically Wehr Grenadiers with Volksgrenadier K98Ks right now).

Luft hasn't been replaced in my build yet, and if I ever get around to finishing my design you'll be able to get a Sturmtiger instead of Fallschirmjagers. Also, V2 rocket. I didn't like Luft because Falls didn't fit with a vehicle-oriented faction, the Wirbelwind was redundant, and the flak guns didn't fit with the highly aggressive nature of the PE. Henschel strafing run got moved over to the Tank Destroyer doctrine (replaces Double-AT efforts).

Note - one thing I forgot to put in my changelog is you can buy a grenade upgrade from T2 that allows Panzer Grenadiers to throw regular Grenadier stick grenades. Incendiary grenades require a Scorched Earth upgrade now. I've added this change into the log now.

bether make a new faction and not remove some and mix the faction

say me what pe is doing againts snipers ???? no ac.
u give them pe a sniper for countersnipe?
i have seen no hummel...
sorry but it hurts
maybe play self a few pe games then u see that pe is not op

I never liked that the sdkfz. 250 and 221 is in in almost every tier of PE just differing by versions.
This is not vcoh like. Normally you have a basic vehicle, say Sdkfz 251, which you can upgrade according to your strategy: Flamer HT for mid game or stuka in late game. There is no Flamer HT in Tier3 or Stuka as own vehicle in tier4.

To keep the offensive character of PE (early assault with weak support), what about offering those vehicles early, but letting them scale?
There would be a tier1, whith infantry upgrades buildable by 15fuel (same amount you would start the game with).
The tier2 would have access to the Sdkfz.221 and 250 by 45fuel. So you either go for infantry upgrades or you spam grens until early vehicles.
These are just 2 units in one single tier, however, similar to USA, you could unlock upgrades e.g. Mortar HT, Infantry HT, ect.
Same for the Sdkfz.221, which would have 2 upgrades just like the M8: Armor upgrade to get Puma armor and weapons upgrade to get the additional 20mm autocannon. The fully upgraded sdkfz.222 (100mun) would then be a faster Puma (no overdrive ability!)

In the next tier, the same could be done to the Panzer38T. An upgrade to become a Marder, Gepard or even Hetzer.

The late game tier would have the PanzerIV Ausf.H as basic tank. No Pantherino.

Ofc Snipers and atguns are also part of this faction, but dunno where to put them yet.

bether make a new faction and not remove some and mix the faction

As i did understand this thread, the point is to remove current PE and replace them with a new faction, which uses some units and abilites of current PE for mod purposes.

Ofc this is a fun project. You cannot redo a faction and keep the other ones untouched and think the gameplay will work. I would even go so far to remove vanilla factions for this mod and just make new brits vs. new PE in a Market garden environment.

bether make a new faction and not remove some and mix the faction

say me what pe is doing againts snipers ???? no ac.
u give them pe a sniper for countersnipe?
i have seen no hummel...
sorry but it hurts
maybe play self a few pe games then u see that pe is not op

Scout Car can be upgraded to Armoured Car. So Armoured Car's not really gone. I wanted to replace the Hummel with the Grille, which is very similar, for aesthetic reasons (more Panzer 38(t)-based vehicles). Also, the Panzerwerfer provides non-doctrinal artillery.

I've played loads of Panzer Elite. I know how the faction works.

Scout Car can be upgraded to Armoured Car. So Armoured Car's not really gone. I wanted to replace the Hummel with the Grille, which is very similar, for aesthetic reasons (more Panzer 38(t)-based vehicles). Also, the Panzerwerfer provides non-doctrinal artillery.

I've played loads of Panzer Elite. I know how the faction works.

grille low artellery????

and then what get the brit and the american howitzer it isnt strong???

u build atm a new faction and no balance for pe

this is totally bullshit

all say pe is op

and wehrmachtt? 7 t1 units with def doc??? not strong?

and upgraded scoutcar to an ac?? so i need tech too counter sniper spam?? and spend ammo or fuel for the cannon upgrape

i`m happy that relic never will patch coh1
cause of this
u will see when u do that what u write here it will be totally bullshit...

i have read pe gets puma??

why?? pe is an faction for axis
axis is the support and pe the fight faction

as next pls fix the riffle vet vet 3 are op
and get american stronger tanks and remove the awm and field repair

then we have an coh3 beta
and dont forget the game cant never be balkanced cause wehrmacht can buy veteran

I answered directly in purple, because I don't want to keep hitting the quote and /quote options.

First of all. There are several concepts now in this thread. Concept 1 is from Carlos, he focuses on putting PE more in line with wehr, doing asthetic changes to make vehicles more streamlined.
grille low artellery????
Grille is 150mm artillery just like the Hummel. Difference is that Hummel is on panzer IV chassis and Grille on Panzer38t chassis. The idea from Carlos is due to PE having several p38(t) chassis vehicles - Marder III, Hetzer, Hotchkiss.
and then what get the brit and the american howitzer it isnt strong???

u build atm a new faction and no balance for pe
That's the point. Sort of.
this is totally bullshit

all say pe is op

and wehrmachtt? 7 t1 units with def doc??? not strong?

PE isn't op, it's just that some of their game mechanics suck, their light vehicles suck and that's why their infantry has to be stronger than anything to compensate.
and upgraded scoutcar to an ac?? so i need tech too counter sniper spam?? and spend ammo or fuel for the cannon upgrape
Idk if you've actually ever used the sdkfz 221. If the gun's horizontal speed is increased the 221 is more than capable of killing/chasing snipers. The 222 is optional. Actually, even in this release version on 2.602 the 222 AC has 40 health less than the 221. It's just that the 221 gun moves so slowly that it's useless. Also, t1 useless in terms of vehicles.

i`m happy that relic never will patch coh1
cause of this
u will see when u do that what u write here it will be totally bullshit...
It's a concept, not bullshit. PE has several flaws, which are:

1) paper armour on vehicles, which result in most units having a very tight window in which they can be useful. Afterwards they're a waste of resource to build
2) blobbing bonuses
3) weakness to early tanks/light vehicles
4) Pantherspam in teamgames/getting heavy tanks without limit for manpower only
5) No real anti-blob weapons apart from sector arty/Hummel (so limited to 1 doc)
6) broken vet system (defensive vet always better than offensive vet, especially for vehicles) Shared vet isn't as bad as people make it out to be though
7) Ketten OP with hidden detection, fast movement and sdkfz22x armourtype.

ofc Pe also has strengths:
1) very early vehicles that can have a huge influence on the battlefield
2) many specialization options for infantry and vehicles
3) very fast teching
4) strong doctrinal units that can fill up holes in the own teching
5) start off with their mainline infantry


i have read pe gets puma??

why?? pe is an faction for axis
axis is the support and pe the fight faction
Axis is based off a historical infantry division from the Wehrmacht in 1944 that was stationed in northern france. PE is basically a mix of all units that fought near Arnheim during operation market garden. Luftwaffe forces, Jagdpanthers etc. I don't know if you thought of that "axis is support and PE is fight faction" yourself or heard it from someone else. It's actually wrong. Both factions fight/play for themselves, and work independently.

. Anyways, idk what's your problem. PE grens need to be blobbed because like 60% of the faction units do not what they should do, or do nothing at all. Because every vehicle has 5 hp and paper armour, getting destroyed by being farted at. So, pe has to rely on their pgrens to do the job, and only use the halftracks that can do micky mouse actions, like treadbreak on the AT HT. Those abilities are considered broken throughout the whole community, are bullshit and no fun to play against.

But what if those abilities are simply removed? Answer is: PE would be completely worthless as a faction. I originally thought you could fix PE by making the AC stronger but available later and delaying halftracks for 35 more fuel. But the faction has deeper flaws that need adressing to actually "fix" the faction.

The idea behind mine and Carlos concept is to make the vehicles worth getting throughout the game, without being useless. Riflemen with bars? Oh no ... Pgrens will die (( . Luckily the new PE can fight back with a REAL armoured car that doesn't get damage on long range from BAR rifle fire.

I answered directly in purple. Anyways, idk what's your problem. PE grens need to be blobbed and strong because like 60% of the faction units do not what they should do. Which is deal damage and stay alive, becuase every vehicle has 5 hp and paper armour, getting destroyed by being farted at.

The idea behind all that stuff is to make the vehicles worth getting throughout the game, without being useless. Riflemen with bars? HF against a REAL armoured car that doesn't get damage on long range from BAR rifle fire. Or against a halftrack with the pzIV stubby gun. Just as an example.

pe gets vehicles too early???? U know the name Panzer Elite Not infantery elite???

and ofc in real it was 2 different fight units

but in the game
pe works perfect when wehrmacht support pe with mgs 1 or 2 sniper 3 or4 paks ops rep bunker and then pump out t4 units stuka and maybe 88

so wehr hast nothing 2 push or fight only support for the panzerelite(not infantery elite)

pe gets vehicles too early???? U know the name Panzer Elite Not infantery elite???

and ofc in real it was 2 different fight units

but in the game
pe works perfect when wehrmacht support pe with mgs 1 or 2 sniper 3 or4 paks ops rep bunker and then pump out t4 units stuka and maybe 88

so wehr hast nothing 2 push or fight only support for the panzerelite(not infantery elite)

Then tell me why nobody builds halftracks except for AT HTs? all I see from PE is pgren spam into pIV or dual AC into Hetzer.

I don't see why Panzer Elite should have 10 halftracks with paper armour. Halftracks are no panzers at all.. A Panzer in CoH is immune to small arms fire. PE halftracks die from being farted at.

The name Panzer Elite is stupid. I'm sure they used it to please those pseudo-german-american-fanboy shit about Nazi germany stereotypes.

It's a fantasy name, just like Starship Trooper, Uruk Hai, Dragon or whatever. If it would be accurate it would need to be Aufklärungs-Abteilung, or Recon-Division in English. Those divisions used light vehicles like halftracks, had infantry support and used schwimmwagens etc. But they had NO heavy tanks whatsoever. Not even a Panzer IV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aufkl%C3%A4rungsabteilung
Just to get a quick overview. And yes, this actually matters. Both USA and Wehr are based off infantry companies/divisions during invasion of normandy. And they actually only use units that were available in those divisions. PE is a fantasy faction.

Then tell me why nobody builds halftracks except for AT HTs? all I see from PE is pgren spam into pIV or dual AC into Hetzer.

I don't see why Panzer Elite should have 10 halftracks with paper armour. Halftracks are no panzers at all.. A Panzer in CoH is immune to small arms fire. PE halftracks die from being farted at.

The name Panzer Elite is stupid. I'm sure they used it to please those pseudo-german-american-fanboy shit about Nazi germany stereotypes.

It's a fantasy name, just like Starship Trooper, Uruk Hai, Dragon or whatever. If it would be accurate it would need to be Aufklärungs-Abteilung, or Recon-Division in English. Those divisions used light vehicles like halftracks, had infantry support and used schwimmwagens etc. But they had NO heavy tanks whatsoever. Not even a Panzer IV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aufkl%C3%A4rungsabteilung
Just to get a quick overview. And yes, this actually matters. Both USA and Wehr are based off infantry companies/divisions during invasion of normandy. And they actually only use units that were available in those divisions. PE is a fantasy faction.

u can play vehicles but not too much cause it is an overkill

when u play ht and mortar and get some vet ur opponent is then playing sniper so u have the unvet acs wh en u buy then an ac as counter unit

so not good yeah the meta is ac into atht maybe mortar then panther and hummel

So I had actually spent a significant amount of time working on this particular idea a few months ago. I coded a ton of changes to the Panzer Elite with the intention of making their design more flexible, fun, and balanced and then releasing the results as mod. Mostly I moved units around and added and removed some stuff. I haven't made any changes to the British faction yet because I feel their faction design is so flawed they need a complete overhaul and doing that is beyond my limited modding abilities.

I really like your non-doctrinal changes to Panzer Elite, seems that it completely changes their dynamic. Can't agree with most of the doctrine changes though, especially completely removing Luftwaffe doctrine. As earlier said, Panzer Elite was based on the rag-tag group of troops that retreated from France and faced the British during the Operation Market Garden. I would though change some of the abilities that they receive from doctrines.


Touching the British subject, I once had a crazy overhaul idea of my own, aimed to change the ridiculous mechanic of blobbing around the lieutenant. First of all, I made the British units move at full speed even in non-friendly territory, made Tommies cheaper and weaker, but kept the reinforcement cost the same (probably should change them too). The weirdest thing I planned was to give British global veterancy that they actually unlocked from earning experience. Basically, you go along earning your exp as usual and when certain number is achieved in the global experience pool, you had a choice in your HQ to pick between global vehicle or infantry veterancy.

The lieutenant and captain lost their "aura" bonuses for other abilities, some of which were unlocked after picking doctrine plus they weren't one man squad any more. Plenty of similarities with officers in CoH2, but I think that it's way better this way.

Though I did plan to make changes in the doctrines too, where Royal Canadian Artillery was to receive the most changes, as I wanted to make it less about artillery, but also about assault follow.

u can play vehicles but not too much cause it is an overkill

when u play ht and mortar and get some vet ur opponent is then playing sniper so u have the unvet acs wh en u buy then an ac as counter unit

so not good yeah the meta is ac into atht maybe mortar then panther and hummel

Yes, that's the point. The vehicles are useless/unnecessary because Pgren blob > all.
About the sniper stuff. If the 221 actually turns its turret around in decent time you can use it to counter snipers just aswell as with a 222 AC. Also, you can get vet on 221 scout cars and then upgrade them into 222 ACs early on.

Also, if you nerf snipers from the vcoh factions this issue becomes less important. Weaker snipers + better counter for PE = happy PE player.

I really like your non-doctrinal changes to Panzer Elite, seems that it completely changes their dynamic. Can't agree with most of the doctrine changes though, especially completely removing Luftwaffe doctrine. As earlier said, Panzer Elite was based on the rag-tag group of troops that retreated from France and faced the British during the Operation Market Garden. I would though change some of the abilities that they receive from doctrines.


Touching the British subject, I once had a crazy overhaul idea of my own, aimed to change the ridiculous mechanic of blobbing around the lieutenant. First of all, I made the British units move at full speed even in non-friendly territory, made Tommies cheaper and weaker, but kept the reinforcement cost the same (probably should change them too). The weirdest thing I planned was to give British global veterancy that they actually unlocked from earning experience. Basically, you go along earning your exp as usual and when certain number is achieved in the global experience pool, you had a choice in your HQ to pick between global vehicle or infantry veterancy.

The lieutenant and captain lost their "aura" bonuses for other abilities, some of which were unlocked after picking doctrine plus they weren't one man squad any more. Plenty of similarities with officers in CoH2, but I think that it's way better this way.

Though I did plan to make changes in the doctrines too, where Royal Canadian Artillery was to receive the most changes, as I wanted to make it less about artillery, but also about assault follow.

Yes, brits require more work, as their base design is just too flawed to be fixed by shifting units around.