VI B and Teching

Currently you can build the VI B as soon as you have built all three buildings, regardless of whether or not they get destroyed. This needs to changes as it is impossible to prevent OKW from building the buildings (due to cheap teching costs) in any remotely close game. Furthermore, OKW can easily float with volk schrecks/obers (particularly with a forward t1/t3) until they shit out a VI B. This is very similar to the tiger ace in that you can punish someone for poor play and then have them magic out a very heavy unit.

The VI B should require all 3 buildings to be currently up in order to build.

Currently you can build the VI B as soon as you have built all three buildings, regardless of whether or not they get destroyed. This needs to changes as it is impossible to prevent OKW from building the buildings (due to cheap teching costs) in any remotely close game. Furthermore, OKW can easily float with volk schrecks/obers (particularly with a forward t1/t3) until they shit out a VI B. This is very similar to the tiger ace in that you can punish someone for poor play and then have them magic out a very heavy unit.

The VI B should require all 3 buildings to be currently up in order to build.

I agree. The KT is inevitable in any late game. Destroying a building should prevent it from entering the battlefield. At least killing the Schwerer HQ should delay it.

I don't mind it being as it is, but maybe they should move it to the Schwerer Panzer Headquarters so that losing this building doesn't mean you can just fall back and camp to a King Tiger instead. Something should still take it's place at the HQ truck, maybe the Panther (separate version with a slower build time?) or Panzer IV Ausf. J so they have something to fall back on.

Currently you can build the VI B as soon as you have built all three buildings, regardless of whether or not they get destroyed. This needs to changes as it is impossible to prevent OKW from building the buildings (due to cheap teching costs) in any remotely close game. Furthermore, OKW can easily float with volk schrecks/obers (particularly with a forward t1/t3) until they shit out a VI B. This is very similar to the tiger ace in that you can punish someone for poor play and then have them magic out a very heavy unit.

The VI B should require all 3 buildings to be currently up in order to build.

Imagine losing your Major, and therefore you wouldn't be able to get any T3 units - that's what's happening to OKW. Losing any tier building is a huge step back, and not just some minor loss that can be easily replaced.

They get T1 / T2 for "free", but pay extra for any unit or tech. Their fuel starvation obviously also affects teching, meaning in a balanced game when OKW just pops their 80 fuel building, you already gathered 120 fuel. Now add the 3rd building, and KT costs, and you would gain approx 570 fuel till the KT arrives, while facing 0 tanks in between.

The KT is more of a last ditch unit, and not something you'll see every game, nor is it that useful in general.

just my 2 cents.

Think how your suggestion would affect the meta.

Would somebody ever build the trucks out of the base ever again? NO.

Why OKW has then trucks? Why not completely remove them?

Why don't we copy paste just Ostheer and face lift some units?

This is thread No. 2131 on this topic by the way.

no significant effects

of course they will.

to have the option of placing their buildings outside of the sector. also, this doesn't matter as far as the VI B goes; this is about teching and the VI B, not the trucks.

ask relic. the answer is probably that the trucks are their conceit. i think the game would benefit from all nations having the ost teching style as it's the most flexible.

i have seen 0 other threads about the VI B being buildable regardless of the buildings being alive or not; i only know it works that way because someone mentioned it in a thread earlier.

Imagine losing your Major, and therefore you wouldn't be able to get any T3 units - that's what's happening to OKW. Losing any tier building is a huge step back, and not just some minor loss that can be easily replaced.

They get T1 / T2 for "free", but pay extra for any unit or tech. Their fuel starvation obviously also affects teching, meaning in a balanced game when OKW just pops their 80 fuel building, you already gathered 120 fuel. Now add the 3rd building, and KT costs, and you would gain approx 570 fuel till the KT arrives, while facing 0 tanks in between.

The KT is more of a last ditch unit, and not something you'll see every game, nor is it that useful in general.

if the major was the t3 building i would think the same thing, but he's not. and no, it's not what happens to OKW. they can choose to place their buildings in their base sector and be protected by their turrets or build them outside in varying degrees of vulnerability.

they don't get either tier for free but they are much, much cheaper than anyone else except US t1. getting fuel/mun slower is not directly related to their teching costs and no has affect on their unit costs, just the timing of those units. their mp, and therefore infantry, are also completely unaffected.

i have zero issues with VI B timing, just with them losing their buildings because they were to far forward and still being able to produce a VI B. the VI B is not a last ditch unit, you do have to save for it, but it does come out very late. generally games have been decided by then, but not always.

invised a few posts lets try to keep it civil. I mean its Christmas for Christ sake the forums are even snowing.

yes, they are, and my firefox windows are lagging from it. crappy latptop

I don't like that idea. If you pulled all 3 trucks, you did the tech and you should be able to pull out units out of those trucks.

Losing a truck or two is not a nothing for OKW. It's a huge setback because you lost retreat point and healing station probably.

OKW is designed to work that way.

If you destroyed a forward truck or two, you should be able to close the game, VI B or not.

If you took huge loses in doing so, and left opponent with enough infantry to turn the game around than you didn't really did that good to deserve victory, did you?

Should I win if I send all my units to Soviet base and destroy barracks losing most my units in process and then complain about IS2 turning the game around even tho I punished him with destroyed barracks?
I don't think so....

I don't like that idea. If you pulled all 3 trucks, you did the tech and you should be able to pull out units out of those trucks.

Losing a truck or two is not a nothing for OKW. It's a huge setback because you lost retreat point and healing station probably.

OKW is designed to work that way.

If you destroyed a forward truck or two, you should be able to close the game, VI B or not.

If you took huge loses in doing so, and left opponent with enough infantry to turn the game around than you didn't really did that good to deserve victory, did you?

Should I win if I send all my units to Soviet base and destroy barracks losing most my units in process and then complain about IS2 turning the game around even tho I punished him with destroyed barracks?
I don't think so....

This.^

I don't like that idea. If you pulled all 3 trucks, you did the tech and you should be able to pull out units out of those trucks.

Losing a truck or two is not a nothing for OKW. It's a huge setback because you lost retreat point and healing station probably.

OKW is designed to work that way.

If you destroyed a forward truck or two, you should be able to close the game, VI B or not.

If you took huge loses in doing so, and left opponent with enough infantry to turn the game around than you didn't really did that good to deserve victory, did you?

Should I win if I send all my units to Soviet base and destroy barracks losing most my units in process and then complain about IS2 turning the game around even tho I punished him with destroyed barracks?
I don't think so....

If the meta wasn't ruled by callins, imagine being 120fuel behind withouat access to T3/T4. At least OH buildings is cheaper due to expensive tech.

AND USF has a big annoying base.

YAY MORE FLAME THREADS!!! just what i wanted for christmas.

If the meta wasn't ruled by callins, imagine being 120fuel behind withouat access to T3/T4. At least OH buildings is cheaper due to expensive tech.

AND USF has a big annoying base.

The base wouldn't be so bad if they just rotated the base to have the retreat point and the weapon racks facing the battlefield instead of back in the farthest corner of the base.

I don't like that idea. If you pulled all 3 trucks, you did the tech and you should be able to pull out units out of those trucks.

Losing a truck or two is not a nothing for OKW. It's a huge setback because you lost retreat point and healing station probably.

OKW is designed to work that way.

If you destroyed a forward truck or two, you should be able to close the game, VI B or not.

If you took huge loses in doing so, and left opponent with enough infantry to turn the game around than you didn't really did that good to deserve victory, did you?

Should I win if I send all my units to Soviet base and destroy barracks losing most my units in process and then complain about IS2 turning the game around even tho I punished him with destroyed barracks?
I don't think so....

if you build all the buildings for every other faction you did the tech and you have those units, unless the building gets destroyed. OKW has the choice of building in their base like everyone else,

it is a huge set back, as is losing a building for anyone else. doesn't prevent them from building a heavy tank.

in general i agree, except that you can destroy a base without doing anything to the infantry protecting it using AT guns, jacksons, SU-85s, or any other long range unit in combination with HMGs to pin. it takes considerably more AT to kill a VI B then it does to kill a base and allies do not have the infantry based AT to fight a VI B.

addressed above.

that's a really shitty comparison to which i'm not sure how to respond.

if you build all the buildings for every other faction you did the tech and you have those units, unless the building gets destroyed. OKW has the choice of building in their base like everyone else,

it is a huge set back, as is losing a building for anyone else. doesn't prevent them from building a heavy tank.

in general i agree, except that you can destroy a base without doing anything to the infantry protecting it using AT guns, jacksons, SU-85s, or any other long range unit in combination with HMGs to pin. it takes considerably more AT to kill a VI B then it does to kill a base and allies do not have the infantry based AT to fight a VI B.

addressed above.

that's a really shitty comparison to which i'm not sure how to respond.

Your whole argument is based on applying one set of standards to OKW and another to Allies, ignoring facts that don't suit your argument.

You cannot build units that were buildable in OKW truck after you lose it either.

VI B comes from HQ and it's pretty much same as call-in unit triggered by setting up all 3 trucks as opposed to triggered by CP in Soviet lineup.
You don't lose ability to pull out IS2 if you lose everything but HQ, same goes with VI B.
Destroy HQ truck instead and you won't have to worry about VI B

And comparison was exactly what you are saying, just in the way it doesn't suit your annoyance at losing games you believe you should have won (unjustified belief, I might add)

Your whole argument is based on applying one set of standards to OKW and another to Allies, ignoring facts that don't suit your argument.

You cannot build units that were buildable in OKW truck after you lose it either.

VI B comes from HQ and it's pretty much same as call-in unit triggered by setting up all 3 trucks as opposed to triggered by CP in Soviet lineup.
You don't lose ability to pull out IS2 if you lose everything but HQ, same goes with VI B.
Destroy HQ truck instead and you won't have to worry about VI B

OKW is built to different standards than every other faction.

or in any other building.

it's kind of like a callin unit but it's not and it's non-doctrinal. if it was doctrinal and used the callin system i wouldn't complain about the unit specifically.

what i am arguing against is OKW getting full utility out of forward placed bases and still being able to build a VI B if they lose them. if they build their buildings in their base they have less map control and more safety. i see the VI B as being a unit produced by all the buildings together and put in the main building because there's room there and it adds filler.

OKW is built to different standards than every other faction.

or in any other building.

it's kind of like a callin unit but it's not and it's non-doctrinal. if it was doctrinal and used the callin system i wouldn't complain about the unit specifically.

what i am arguing against is OKW getting full utility out of forward placed bases and still being able to build a VI B if they lose them. if they build their buildings in their base they have less map control and more safety. i see the VI B as being a unit produced by all the buildings together and put in the main building because there's room there and it adds filler.

Whole point of having fuel, ammo, CP, teching etc in COH/RTS is about timing when units can first hit the field and how frequent they can do that.
Having to set up all 3 trucks is just another timer on limiting the fastest possible time player can pull out strong unit like VI B in a game, nothing more.
In case of OKW VI B is where it is because it forces player to make all 3 building instead of skipping tiers closely tied with OKW fuel starvation. It prohibits OKW player to get this unit by relying on CP and carrying on with shreck Volks negating fuel starvation design.

Having forward truck offers it's advantage but also carries it pitfalls. That forward truck is in range of whole array of long range weapons and it's not that easy to keep it 'open for business'. Try playing OKW and you will understand.

Your whole argument goes against entire point of designing the game like that, because you don't seem to understand why the game is designed like that in the first place.

It's pointless discussing this anymore for me, I completely disagree with entire reasoning behind your argument.

i agree that we've hit an impasse and i'll leave it at that.

The base wouldn't be so bad if they just rotated the base to have the retreat point and the weapon racks facing the battlefield instead of back in the farthest corner of the base.

I don't see the reason it need to have extra MG bunkers inside and there are certain maps on which is impossible to navigate around it. Ex: Vauxfarmlands.