Wehrmacht Ostheer

there are a number of possibilities, including making t4 take quite a while to build or making p4 cost a fair bit. if relic was willing to do the work it would be fine

I will list the units with problems again.This time with what being the causes of the problem to clarify my statement

Mg42 -Incapable of doing its job.
Reason -unreliable suppression/turn speed.Bad mobility.No dmg.Ability of enemy to greande it suppressed.Evasion tactics like urrah and smoke added to this.

Sniper - Simply too fragile for its cost when light vehicles are in abundance on allied side and squad sizes also being bigger.

T2 -

Armoured Car - Where to start.Poor damage.Highly fragile.Loses to all its light vehicle competition even with its muni upgrade most of the time.Just shit.

Panzergrenadiers - Not worth 340 mp.Overpriced.Unit itself is not bad,but very costly and enormous reinforcement cost.

FHT - Unable to do its job because it simply comes too late.Teching restriction to t3=dead unit.

T3 -
Stug - Poor penetration.High teching cost.2 shotted by jackson lolz.
Panzer 4 - Incapable.High teching cost.Easily bullied by soviet medium call-ins or E8.Jackson 3 shotted.Not worth 125 fuel plus teching cost with t-34/85 coming in at 10 mp and 5 fuel more.Can be held back easily by couple of bazooka squads for waiting to jackson to arrive.

T4 -Generally u'll never see it ingame.
Brummbaar overpriced -Insane tech cost.Insane unit cost.Not appreciable return.
Panther - Overpriced.Insane tech cost.High unit cost.
Panzerwerfer - Insane teching cost.Dmg and area is joke compared to katyusha despite comparable price.

I will list the units with problems again.This time with what being the causes of the problem to clarify my statement

Mg42 -Incapable of doing its job.
Reason -unreliable suppression/turn speed.Bad mobility.No dmg.Ability of enemy to greande it suppressed.Evasion tactics like urrah and smoke added to this.

Sniper - Simply too fragile for its cost when light vehicles are in abundance on allied side and squad sizes also being bigger.

T2 -

Armoured Car - Where to start.Poor damage.Highly fragile.Loses to all its light vehicle competition even with its muni upgrade most of the time.Just shit.

Panzergrenadiers - Not worth 340 mp.Overpriced.Unit itself is not bad,but very costly and enormous reinforcement cost.

FHT - Unable to do its job because it simply comes too late.Teching restriction to t3=dead unit.

T3 -
Stug - Poor penetration.High teching cost.2 shotted by jackson lolz.
Panzer 4 - Incapable.High teching cost.Easily bullied by soviet medium call-ins or E8.Jackson 3 shotted.Not worth 125 fuel plus teching cost with t-34/85 coming in at 10 mp and 5 fuel more.Can be held back easily by couple of bazooka squads for waiting to jackson to arrive.

T4 -Generally u'll never see it ingame.
Brummbaar overpriced -Insane tech cost.Insane unit cost.Not appreciable return.
Panther - Overpriced.Insane tech cost.High unit cost.
Panzerwerfer - Insane teching cost.Dmg and area is joke compared to katyusha despite comparable price.

MG42,Sniper,GD vs RF,222,Panzerwerfer and Brummbar are too bad, but not the worst...

The worst units of Ostheer are PG,FHT and Stug, I never build these units in games. They are absolutely shit.

MG42,Sniper,GD vs RF,222,Panzerwerfer and Brummbar are too bad, but not the worst...

The worst units of Ostheer are PG,FHT and Stug, I never build these units in games. They are absolutely shit.

Agree on stug and FHT,total shit..just made up these units to extend the roster i think.
Panzergrenadier with shrecks is useful.I use it very rarely as AI against soviet players trying to bully grens and try and ambush them by luring them into waiting pzgren(preferably throwing a bundle right at the front of shocks advance path) while retreating with gren,then gren turns back and joins attack.

i don't have any issues with the stug being hard countered by the jackson and su-85; that's just what happens when you have two similar units and one costs a lot more

Pak cloaking at vet 3 was removed when it was a beast.Now with the nerf to the unit itself,plus nerf to AT gun veterancy what is the justification?
Cloaking was a fun mechanic ,especially for 4 man at guns-made for tactical ambushes and fast tanks couldn't just breeze past everytime.

last i checked (a patch or two ago) paks still had cloaking...

I'm dropping Ostheer - it was my favorite faction since launch but right now in 1v1 it's just almost impossible to win against USF: even vet 3 grens simply *MELT* when facing rifles, HMG 42 plain sucks (or maybe RNG keeps giving me retared/blind gun crews equipped with marshmallow bullets?), insane teching costs (while you tech up, USF keeps breeding rifles like zerglings) - all these (plus many more) things made Ostheer most challenging and least rewarding faction.

It's a shame that after releasing WFA and AA Relic forgot about Ostheer.
Oh, sorry, they did not forget - after all, they nerfed the PAK

I'm dropping Ostheer - it was my favorite faction since launch but right now in 1v1 it's just almost impossible to win against USF: even vet 3 grens simply *MELT* when facing rifles, HMG 42 plain sucks (or maybe RNG keeps giving me retared/blind gun crews equipped with marshmallow bullets?), insane teching costs (while you tech up, USF keeps breeding rifles like zerglings) - all these (plus many more) things made Ostheer most challenging and least rewarding faction.

It's a shame that after releasing WFA and AA Relic forgot about Ostheer.
Oh, sorry, they did not forget - after all, they nerfed the PAK

Not just the pak,they nerfed the pzgrenadier after it was amde useable for like one patch.
I too have stopped ostheer 1 vs 1 atleast.In larger teamamodes atleast u have panther.

Not just the pak,they nerfed the pzgrenadier after it was amde useable for like one patch.
I too have stopped ostheer 1 vs 1 atleast.In larger teamamodes atleast u have panther.

Pak gun has saved me few times in battle, but not for a win.

Pak gun has saved me few times in battle, but not for a win.

Is pak slower than other AT guns?It feels like it.Anyway pak is a mediocre unit these days,not shit..but just a stopgap utility unit.

Can Grenadiers please have the option of upgrading to double LMGs, thx.

Can Grenadiers please have the option of upgrading to double LMGs, thx.

USF M1919's and BAR mania is insane, especially with the massive complaints against LMG's overrall, but Soviets themselves still dont have realistic LMG's and have to survive somehow in the late game. :/

More LMG's regardless will introduce even more problems than there already are. Ostheer is supposed to use support units to deal with problems, and better promotion of grens with/without helping Ostheer support shuffles the problem around. Anyways, it gets boring just using grens to survive...

Can Grenadiers please have the option of upgrading to double LMGs, thx.

Sure, the moment it becomes doctrinal with no heavy armor in the doctrine

Can Grenadiers please have the option of upgrading to double LMGs, thx.

Would be better if we just removed USF's capability to do this instead.

Would be better if we just removed USF's capability to do this instead.

Would be nice if every squad can only have a slot for one LMG, excluding Guards' worst DP's. Every game becomes a contest for who can blob the most LMG's - and Para double M1919 upgrade was a very well designed upgrade, Kappa. Same for the two-in-one LMG34.

There was a moment LMG grens, Shocks and PG were the highest DPS units. We need to tone down the rest, not put the others at the same DPS level.

Also in response to "Grenadiers will beat Riflemen at long range" I've decided to test it. Squad vs Squad controlled test, long range, no cover, no vet, no outside factors, no retreating, 20 attempts. Grenadiers won 9 times and Riflemen won 11 times.

The number of survivors per-lane is as follows:
Surviving Grenadiers: 3 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1
Surviving Riflemen: 4 3 3 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1


In other words, with both sides on equal footing, victory is mostly RNG. You may take one casualty or lose the squad and anything in between. Riflemen seem to have a very slight statistical advantage, but they have a completely advantage in any sort of actual fight unless Grenadiers are caught in heavy cover and force Rifles to charge. But of course Grens in heavy cover aren't out capping, and heavy cover isn't always available nor can they create it.

Now do this with Vet 2 BAR rifles vs Vet 2 LMG grens. Or even max range with double BAR vet 2 Rifles vs vet 2 LMG grens.

The only way for rifles to compete with the long range DPS of Vet 2 LMG Grens is become Vet 3 with infantry company LMGs. This is thanks to their wonderful backwards vet system that only rifles have. Since their combat bonuses come at Vet 3 it doesnt help rifles propel their unlike Grens who once reaching Vet 2 3 is shortly there after.

The only reason Grens lose to rifles is because a rifle model is almost EXACTLY like a Gren a tiny bit better close a tiny bit worse long range DPS. So a 5 model squad wins.

The scale though is rifles will bleed against Grens mid game.

The overall issue is the early game. Where Ost must tech and Ost must build a Pak and USF is getting free squads (with terrible terrible upkeep costs).

So Rifles better early with a free officer coming and Ost tech kicking them in nuts. Nerfing rifles is fine with me. Just make them cost 240MP and lower their upkeep as well as mirror both Soviet and Ostheers veterancy structure.

I think Ost and Soviets both need a teching cost reduction. Alternatively OKW and USF need a tech cost increase.

Further to get utility and upgrades USF has a side cost. So again come mid game Ostheer is ok. Its just the early game. Early game screws them.

USF M1919's and BAR mania is insane, especially with the massive complaints against LMG's overrall, but Soviets themselves still dont have realistic LMG's and have to survive somehow in the late game. :/

More LMG's regardless will introduce even more problems than there already are. Ostheer is supposed to use support units to deal with problems, and better promotion of grens with/without helping Ostheer support shuffles the problem around. Anyways, it gets boring just using grens to survive...

thats the problem they overnerfed the daylights out of all ostheer support units and then nerfed the cream of the crop infantry,pgs.

You cant rely on mgs or paks or mortars or flame half traks as support. All you can really do is hold untill you get to t3, which also got nerfed. Practically every unit of ostheer since launch has been nerfed.

Ostheer is bordering on becoming the panzer elite of Coh2.

thats the problem they overnerfed the daylights out of all ostheer support units and then nerfed the cream of the crop infantry,pgs.

You cant rely on mgs or paks or mortars or flame half traks as support. All you can really do is hold untill you get to t3, which also got nerfed. Practically every unit of ostheer since launch has been nerfed.

Ostheer is bordering on becoming the panzer elite of Coh2.

Umm, quite a few(vast majority) of ost players I've played scream "support weapon this, support weapon that" and then attempted to use them as frontline units.

HMG42s should be BEHIND grenadiers, not before them, then you'll see them working.

PaKs should be BEHIND or near shrecked PGs, not instead of them, then you'll have very solid AT support.

If you really believe you can't rely on ost mortar, then I don't even know what to say, turbomortar is best stock indirect infantry weapon in game when it comes to ROF, accuracy and cost.

And would it break your bubble if I told you that last changes that were made to ost T3 buffed it?

Only real performance issue when it comes to units is about pwerfer and FHT. Every other issue literally boils down to tech costs.