Wehrmacht Ostheer

Can we make Pioneers more effective given they are the most expensive builder to help the faction on more crowded maps along with changes in tech costs? They got nerfed after the March Deployment but every other combat unit got buffed. They cost too much for their actual performance coming at 25mp per man, 200mp in a faction that has high costs in terms of mp for their tech, despite how easy they are to kill and their range forces them to have to close to be effective whereas CE and even RE can at least slowly peg away at you from cover. They only really stop charges by rifles and cons who are running into a Gren squad and that is when no one is shooting them or simply waiting behind cover and letting their units tie/beat the grens at mid range.

Sure they beat other builders, but that still doesn't help that really with map control/stopping units from breaking the line to the cut-off. And USF can just volley fire for an auto-win vs pios further halting any attempts to capture points away from the conflict.

If they got buffed we'd have a better option than just Gren,Gren,Gren,Gren on most maps. The Flamethrower is good, but it can explode and that's more munitions on a faction that generally needs munitions for other things.

Sturm Pios also don't really count: they are more of a utility combat unit.

I didn't realize that micro was a task reserved for allies only.

I didn't realise clicking Riflemen next to Grenadiers took that much micro.

I didn't realise clicking Riflemen next to Grenadiers took that much micro.

This is analogous to bitching that a sturmpio will win against riflemen up close.

That is by design, and moving/positioning your units based on the situation is more or less the entire concept of the game/genre.

Can we make Pioneers more effective given they are the most expensive builder to help the faction on more crowded maps along with changes in tech costs? They got nerfed after the March Deployment but every other combat unit got buffed. They cost too much for their actual performance coming at 25mp per man, 200mp in a faction that has high costs in terms of mp for their tech, despite how easy they are to kill and their range forces them to have to close to be effective whereas CE and even RE can at least slowly peg away at you from cover. They only really stop charges by rifles and cons who are running into a Gren squad and that is when no one is shooting them or simply waiting behind cover and letting their units tie/beat the grens at mid range.

Sure they beat other builders, but that still doesn't help that really with map control/stopping units from breaking the line to the cut-off. And USF can just volley fire for an auto-win vs pios further halting any attempts to capture points away from the conflict.

If they got buffed we'd have a better option than just Gren,Gren,Gren,Gren on most maps. The Flamethrower is good, but it can explode and that's more munitions on a faction that generally needs munitions for other things.

Sturm Pios also don't really count: they are more of a utility combat unit.

I agree they are quite bad, 25 manpower for less dps than 28 manpower rifles at every single range. Even a price reduction could be fine for less expensive flamer units or cheaper weapon recrews. It also hurts that ostheer always needs a sweeper pio vs soviets and very often vs USF where as the allied factions and OKW don't need to invest as much manpower for this every game

eh, OKW has the exact same mine. most don't seem to realize that but i still tend to get sweepers against them

I think making flamers not explode randomly would go a long way in helping ost in general. Investing munis on a flimsy unit for cqb purposes should pay off if used correctly. I think just buffing their mp-40s flat out could cause more problems than simply making the flamethrower a reliable upgrade.

This is analogous to bitching that a sturmpio will win against riflemen up close.

Sturmpioneers are not OKW's main line infantry. Attempting to treat them as such will not get you far.

That is by design, and moving/positioning your units based on the situation is more or less the entire concept of the game/genre.

So basically Ostheer should only ever have units in green cover, even though they cannot make green cover?

Or maybe they're supposed to build bunkers to house Grenadiers, which are totally free and not vulnerable to Grenades.

Yeah why dont you calculate the dps of a gren squad with a lmg and a volks squad with shrek. the dps is simply not impressive.

Sure, at Vet4 they're equal to Vet3 Grens. Here goes your theory. Also if only OKW had some super infantry to support their Volks. Oh wait.

eh, OKW has the exact same mine. most don't seem to realize that but i still tend to get sweepers against them

Mines were more popular when OKW had 100% munitions income. But there was some crying, some people whinging thought it was "OP" then it got nerfed down into 80% munitions income, so now people are too busy trying to outfit for panzershreks since the mines are just a 30-muni sink luxury that could be better spent elsewhere. (Like on grenades.)

Sure, at Vet4 they're equal to Vet3 Grens. Here goes your theory. Also if only OKW had some super infantry to support their Volks. Oh wait.

l2read mate your just embarrassing yourself.

l2read mate your just embarrassing yourself.

Sorry but the discussion was about scaling, right?

Vet3 Gren: 29.14/14.62/11.02
Vet4 Volks (no shrecks): 27.68/14.15/10.31


You have been proven that they have dps equal to Grenadiers without upgrades and if you consider all the upgrades with Vet5 they are actually better due to ability to soak huge damage and being 5 men squad. We are still talking about scaling. Percent wise there is no other unit in this game that gains more.
Now this comes within army that was designed around weak core infantry (similar to Soviet), but as it turns out this unit isn't that weak as originally thought.
The only thing that makes Grens better is lmg upgrade, but since these units fulfill different roles it is hard to compare them directly.


There is a reason why Allied meta revolves around indirect fire or units that're able to wipe out squads with single shoot.

Guys, this thread is about Ostheer.
The tourney has very much proven that at present Ostheer is not competitive against USF - and barely so against Soviets, I might add. This was hardly a secret before the event, but it is good that there has no been a conclusive demonstration of that sad state of affairs. As to why, the main factors have already been mentioned, so I wont reiterate, but in any case there is urgent need for a balance patch. Its not like Ost will "die" or anything, people will continue to play them sporadically, but as of now the faction is too weak to see any competitive use and, speaking for myself, just to fucking frustrating to play more then very casually.

One thing I find very difficult late game with Osth is that Grens with LMG have to stand in one spot to get effective shots, this leaves them open to indirect fire and squad wipes. I guess you can say Rifles with M191 upgrades run through the same issue, but LMG grens is non doctrinal.

Guys, this thread is about Ostheer.
The tourney has very much proven that at present Ostheer is not competitive against USF - and barely so against Soviets, I might add. This was hardly a secret before the event, but it is good that there has no been a conclusive demonstration of that sad state of affairs. As to why, the main factors have already been mentioned, so I wont reiterate, but in any case there is urgent need for a balance patch. Its not like Ost will "die" or anything, people will continue to play them sporadically, but as of now the faction is too weak to see any competitive use and, speaking for myself, just to fucking frustrating to play more then very casually.

You're right. Sorry about the offtop.

So basically Ostheer should only ever have units in green cover, even though they cannot make green cover?

Or maybe they're supposed to build bunkers to house Grenadiers, which are totally free and not vulnerable to Grenades.

No, I see you are having trouble with this so let me make it simple for you.

If you want to win a Gren v Rifleman engagement, engage at range.

If you want to lose, let them get close.

If you want to lose, let them get close.

The first problem is that rifles will generally not take anywhere near enough damage to have to retreat, as they charge entrenched grens. This is compounded by the fact that the Heer MG is just plain ineffective against rifles. With equal micro, two rifles will beat a gren and an MG almost every time, because the MG won't suppress the rifles before they manage to flank. Again, most of the time it isn't about the Heer player "letting" the rifles get close.

The second problem is that rifles are extremely competitive with Grens at range; Grens have a slight advantage, but nothing remotely like the rifles' advantage close up.

No, I see you are having trouble with this so let me make it simple for you.

If you want to win a Gren v Rifleman engagement, engage at range.

If you want to lose, let them get close.

How do you stop them from closing,ur gren DPS is not enough to wipe out squads attempting to close and u don't have a close range grenade.On top of that there are maps.Reason that i only use g43 doctrines these days,even then results are avg at best.You can't tiptoe around the problem of huge MP disparity in teching no matter how much u try.Ostheer is the weakest faction allround,not many will dispute this fact.

I'd recommend you to see how it is on the other side. Play USF, try it for yourself.

I did for a time,and vs ostheer it was easy.Like i said all u have to do is use shift click to attack with ur rifles from different angles.Ur crush him just by numbers due to mp tech disparity and pure dps of rifles.Light vehicle is clincher.

I don't know. I don't see it this way. Even against USF. The key is to play defensively early game. Don't stretch too far, use MGs together with mortars and gradually push your opponent back. The only BS right now is canister shoot, but you can say the same about rifle nades.

I don't know. I don't see it this way. Even against USF. The key is to play defensively early game. Don't stretch too far, use MGs together with mortars and gradually push your opponent back. The only BS right now is canister shoot, but you can say the same about rifle nades.

Mgs are easily avoided.very unreliable and if taken gg.And ur mortar is wholly dependant on mg for survival.U spent 2 x240 mp on support units- u will face twice the number of rifles to ur grenadiers and be overwhelmed by sheer numbers ,if they attack from angles and use smoke.The mthod u describe is only possible if he rushes in all rifles head on straight on your mg-which is noobplay.