Wehrmacht Ostheer

USF shines really well against Ostheer early game but Iv noticed that late game USF staying power falls off so much that it becomes a push over for the axis players. Jacksons are just to unreliable against panthers and tigers.

Not to mention that even without upgrades, American rifles overpower and outclass Ostheer Grenadiers. So where exactly do they begin to outscale American rifles? Or is my definition of scaling as number of options to approach any given situation not correct?

I think your definition of scaling is a bit off here, "scaling" is mainly referring to "evolution" (or rather quality of evolution) when applied to ingame units. Oberkommando Volksgrenadiere are a perfect example of scaling, even if they do nots have that much options/abilities (Shrecks are awesome, sure): they start being rather meh (durable, but meh), and scale very good in the lategame because of vet bonuses.

While if completely agree Wehrmacht has issues in 1v1 at the moment that should be resolved, i also think that Grenadiere scale very well : their LMG is very potent, and vet bonuses are enough to make them a solid all rounder at all stages of the game (i think they should be a reference point for balance of all infantry in the game).

Okay either you're trolling or you're intentionally ignoring that American rifles have 2x more options than standard Ostheer Grenadiers do when it comes to approaching a situation.

Ostheer Grenadiers - Panzerfaust, LMG-42 Upgrade, (Doctrinal) G-43 Upgrade (Eliminates possibility of LMG-42 Upgrade.), and Rifle Grenade.

American Riflemen - Anti-Tank Grenade (Snare), Frag Grenade, Smoke Grenade, Bazooka, BAR, (Doctrinal) M1919-LMG Upgrade (Does not eliminate possibility for BAR's).


I dunno about your math, but mine is solid on this. That's six options for American Riflemen vs four options for Ostheer Grenadiers!


Not to mention that even without upgrades, American rifles overpower and outclass Ostheer Grenadiers. So where exactly do they begin to outscale American rifles? Or is my definition of scaling as number of options to approach any given situation not correct?

I find these two units rather balanced when compared one to the other. Rifles shines in early game, and outperform grenadiers. From there, there is an amo problem. Whoever gets enough amo to upgrade his squads, has the advantage. Then, it is a question of squad preservation - a battle for obtaining experienced squads in late game. Between level 3 vet grenadiers and vet 3 ONE BAR rifles.... it's situational, but I think in most cases grens will still win.

maxim spam only works against noobs.

Whoever says that, he didn't meet a true spammer. What if the spammer himself is not a noob either?

I think your definition of scaling is a bit off here, "scaling" is mainly referring to "evolution" (or rather quality of evolution) when applied to ingame units. Oberkommando Volksgrenadiere are a perfect example of scaling, even if they do nots have that much options/abilities (Shrecks are awesome, sure): they start being rather meh (durable, but meh), and scale very good in the lategame because of vet bonuses.

While if completely agree Wehrmacht has issues in 1v1 at the moment that should be resolved, i also think that Grenadiere scale very well : their LMG is very potent, and vet bonuses are enough to make them a solid all rounder at all stages of the game (i think they should be a reference point for balance of all infantry in the game).

The way I read that makes it sound almost exactly the same man. In fact American riflemen with an M1919 or two melt infantry as fast or faster than Obersoldaten, Paratroopers are equally lethal or more so.


OKW Volksgrenadiers come with a short range grenade, a single panzershrek upgrade for 90 munitions(or lower with bulletins.) and some good vet bonuses that make them have better staying power, though early game they suck.. a lot. They don't have the combat capability to fight infantry at all. They are basically 5-man Ostruppen squads that cost 35manpower more, or 5-manpower less than a Grenadier squad.


The only reason they vet quickly is due to the fact that their panzershrek allows them to deal higher damage to vehicles with higher health pools than infantry and cost more than them. Since vet is almost directly equal to damage dealt and sustained rather than units eliminated you end up with that. Also without any other munition sinks for Volksgrenadiers and OKW as a whole. Panzershrek blobs become inevitable.

(Almost all OKW Artillery is either overpriced or too weak/broken to function, or both.)


So no, I think American rifles are probably the best scaling infantry in the game. They have almost every option open and available to them to fight the battle.


Also I'm a bit tired of people comparing the Bazooka to the Panzershrek. The Panzershrek has more damage against medium vehicles sure, but where it really shines is against the heaviest tanks in the game, which it still manages to bounce off of.(This is seen often against IS-2's)

Applied to Light-vehicles and Medium Tanks the Bazooka is almost equal to the Panzershrek in performance. With a faster reload and rate of fire as well as being a bit cheaper than a panzershrek. When playing OKW, I almost always have my volksgrens pick up a bazooka if one is dropped since it perfectly annihilates Shermans and Jacksons etc. Their armor is just so thin that they are always vulnerable to these things.

Now go and try to use this bazooka on heavy armoured German targets. See the difference?
Also OKW has the best scaling infantry at the moment, with Volks winning the prize for me. Starting as a cannon fodder at Vet0 and turning into super soldiers at Vet5.
Obers are broken + plus they're good at Vet0.

Wermaht starts normal but they turn into very good infantry with lmg upgrade and some Vet. Also right now rifle nades are basically broken so you can inflict heave MP drain from the start. US infantry will be advantageous early game, that's why defensive play at the begining is crucial, but with few lmgs they gain advantage. Late game Grenadiers are better than late game Rifles.

Now go and try to use this bazooka on heavy armoured German targets. See the difference?
Also OKW has the best scaling infantry at the moment, with Volks winning the prize for me. Starting as a cannon fodder at Vet0 and turning into super soldiers at Vet5.
Obers are broken + plus they're good at Vet0.

Wermaht starts normal but they turn into very good infantry with lmg upgrade and some Vet. Also right now rifle nades are basically broken so you can inflict heave MP drain from the start. US infantry will be advantageous early game, that's why defensive play at the begining is crucial, but with few lmgs they gain advantage. Late game Grenadiers are better than late game Rifles.

Dont agree. until voks get vet 5 they are not really that great and many other infantry are more durable then they are and perform better in the dps department as well. And vet 5 is not a given . sure if you get 1 to vet 5 its awesome but untill then they are rather crap.

Grens vs rifles depends on maps and doctrine and i can already guarantee you that rifles with bars will be way better on semois then grens with lmg's. if the usf has access to the lmg's your grens will simply not stand a chance.

So where exactly do they begin to outscale American rifles?

With veterancy.

Guys, arguing with Sierra is useless.

Notice how he is now mostly talking about OKW when this is a thread about Werhmacht. He is clearly trolling and it will only be a matter of time before he is banned again. He never posts any evidence to support his argument, aside from Wikipedia links.

When he makes a graph, video-tests, uploads definitive replays, or in some other way contributes to balance arguments other than textwall of worthless blabbering, we can start taking him seriously.



Is OP still even here?

Dont agree. until voks get vet 5 they are not really that great and many other infantry are more durable then they are and perform better in the dps department as well. And vet 5 is not a given . sure if you get 1 to vet 5 its awesome but untill then they are rather crap.

Grens vs rifles depends on maps and doctrine and i can already guarantee you that rifles with bars will be way better on semois then grens with lmg's. if the usf has access to the lmg's your grens will simply not stand a chance.

I've never said they're the best infantry only that they gain the most from Vet. Also getting them to Vet5 requires nothing except not letting them die. With Shreks they will get there in no time. By the end of the game I have at least 1 squad that's Vet5, usually more than that. Its harder to get Obers to Vet3, than Volks to Vet5.

grens defiantly outscale rifles.

also if u are allowing ur usf opponent to get enough muni for those 1919's

THATS A HUGE L2P ISSUE

Are you fucking kidding me? Every time I played as USF infantry company while reached 3-4 CP, there were at least 3 M1919s ready.

USF is the number 1 weapon upgrade no-brainer because they have almost NO other options spending their munis. Are we suppose to L2P to a level to deny USF 100% muni income?

I hate people saying "If you were allowing your opponents doing XXXXX, you made a big mistake / L2P / whatever", it is stupid like "If you were allowing your opponent using his/her Queen in Chess, you made a big mistake / L2P / whatever". Either it is extremely ignorant or purely trolling.

Are you fucking kidding me? Every time I played as USF infantry company while reached 3-4 CP, there were at least 3 M1919s ready.

USF is the number 1 weapon upgrade no-brainer because they have almost NO other options spending their munis. Are we suppose to L2P to a level to deny USF 100% muni income?

I hate people saying "If you were allowing your opponents doing XXXXX, you made a big mistake / L2P / whatever", it is stupid like "If you were allowing your opponent using his/her Queen in Chess, you made a big mistake / L2P / whatever". Either it is extremely ignorant or purely trolling.

if you allow your opponent to slaughter all ur units in the 1st 5 minutes every game, its an big mistake / L2P / whatever... lololollool l2p, get gud, rekt

Problems :

All MGs have some problem suppressing any unit in yellow cover, suppression needs to be fixed.

MG42 doesn't do enough damage.

Soviet and American vehicles come to early, Whermacht does not get an AT gun or Panzershreck fast enough. BAAAAAD. The early game would be so much more fun if it was infantry only and no god damn vehicles. Remember that Scout car used to be a problem and then everyone complains about kubels? Relic just still doesn't get it.

Are we suppose to L2P to a level to deny USF 100% muni income?

yes..

Are you fucking kidding me? Every time I played as USF infantry company while reached 3-4 CP, there were at least 3 M1919s ready.

USF is the number 1 weapon upgrade no-brainer because they have almost NO other options spending their munis. Are we suppose to L2P to a level to deny USF 100% muni income?

I hate people saying "If you were allowing your opponents doing XXXXX, you made a big mistake / L2P / whatever", it is stupid like "If you were allowing your opponent using his/her Queen in Chess, you made a big mistake / L2P / whatever". Either it is extremely ignorant or purely trolling.

Don't argue with trolls Porygon...

Don't argue with trolls Porygon...

and I wont argue with you

Guys, arguing with Sierra is useless.

Notice how he is now mostly talking about OKW when this is a thread about Werhmacht. He is clearly trolling and it will only be a matter of time before he is banned again. He never posts any evidence to support his argument, aside from Wikipedia links.

When he makes a graph, video-tests, uploads definitive replays, or in some other way contributes to balance arguments other than textwall of worthless blabbering, we can start taking him seriously.


Is OP still even here?

The only reason I'm going to even dignify your post with a response is due to the fact that you CLEARLY did not read any of my previous posts which SPECIFICALLY discussed the nature of Ostheer Grenadiers in comparison to American Rifles.


Now I'm just going to click this handy dandy report feature here since you're obviously trying to troll/defame/whatever and go about discussing like a rational human being rather than just personally attack people because I don't like their face.

The only reason I'm going to even dignify your post with a response is due to the fact that you CLEARLY did not read any of my previous posts which SPECIFICALLY discussed the nature of Ostheer Grenadiers in comparison to American Rifles.


Now I'm just going to click this handy dandy report feature here since you're obviously trying to troll/defame/whatever and go about discussing like a rational human being rather than just personally attack people because I don't like their face.

If you're gonna report someone, you typically shouldn't also respond to the post you are reporting. You aren't doing yourself any favors by calling me a troll while simultaneously feeding the alleged trolling. L2Forum

I have not made any personal attacks towards you, and I have never said that I don't like you or your face. I'm sorry if you feel that way.

I'm perfectly capable of discussing things like a rational human being, I just wish you were. You'd know that I read your previous posts seeing as I responded to one of them. When you wish to carry out a conversation in the manner which you describe, feel free to PM me or add me on Steam.

Otherwise I think it'd be best you didn't carry on the way you have been in this thread so far.

I've never said they're the best infantry only that they gain the most from Vet. Also getting them to Vet5 requires nothing except not letting them die. With Shreks they will get there in no time. By the end of the game I have at least 1 squad that's Vet5, usually more than that. Its harder to get Obers to Vet3, than Volks to Vet5.

Wrong on both accounts. Volks benefit the least from veterancy. they start with shitty kars and end with slightly less shitty kars. Fusiliers start with some of the best kars in the game and end with g43 and the highest long rang dps output of any rifle/ carbines (with only lmg;s can surpass them) in the game and remember death enemies do zero damage thats better then just being a punching bag like vet 5 volks.

And yes i agree that volks vet easily but only vet 5 is of relevance and you cannot proclaim that a vet 5 volks is a certainty. thats BS