Corp's Fast T2 Strategy/Discussion

I know that there is already a thread about tier 2, but I made this guide for another forum and thought it would be nice for refocusing attention on this strategy and exploring it for new players.

In line with the extremely short Tier 1 gameplay I've been playing a full Tier 2 strategy with Germans. I thought it'd be nice to outline my success with it. I've not lost with it yet; although I haven't really field tested it much in 1v1s and the matchmaker seems to struggle to make fair games right now. I did just get out of a fairly satisfying 2v2 game that was challenging though.

Anyways, to the guide!

German Tier 2 Rush

Why skip tier 1?
Simply put, the units that come out of the tier 1 building are not really worthwhile in my opinion. CoH2 has a very punishing upkeep cost for fielding units. Tier one units do not preform for their cost:
Grenadiers: A decent general purpose troop, this unit falls off very quickly. There are very few situations where I'd prefer Grenadiers to Panzer Grenadiers.
MG42 Squad: The MG 42 is still powerful but pitted against tough odds early game. The low cost and built-in Ooorah! of conscripts makes flanking a nightmare and the powerful Soviet motars and snipers are very damaging to this unit. Flamethrowers in scout cars can kill this squad even while retreating. It's okay.
Sniper: A useless unit against an army with two snipers for each of your own and universal 6-man squads. To make matters worse it has the same health as any other infantry on the field making it bait to unlucky shells/rocket attacks.
Mortar Team: The mortar team is quite good and punishes many troublesome units. Skipping tier one does not exclude access to an excellent mortar as the 225 Mortar Halftrack can testify.

Tier 2 units excel at their roles and are incredibly flexible. Best of all, you needn't sacrifice too much early game power for skipping tier 1.

The Build
In 1v1s and 2v2s, construct two additional pioneer squads (for a total of three squads) to give yourself good capping power for the early game. In 3v3 and 4v4 scenarios I find that teammates bolster your general capping power so much that you can instead invest the 200 manpower for your third squad into a securing a strategic point for bonus fuel. Pioneers will scale well with this strategy as Tier 2 has a number of light vehicles that will need upkeep and repairs. Their flamethrowers can be used to defensively hold ground and cover retreating vehicles from rushing Russian infantry with AT grenades/weapons.

Focus on general purpose strategic points and fuel points with your capture paths. Your third built pioneer should capture a single point and then retreat to build the Tier 2 Leichte Mechanized Company. Direct confrontation with the enemy is very unwise at this stage. Use your pioneers to capture and take count of his units. Your first unit from Tier 2 will always be a Panzer Grenadier squad. From your contact with the enemy will notice one of two strategies unfurling which will determine your second unit:

Sniper/Flamer M3A1 Clowncars
This Russian early game revolves around throwing a high impact unit ( Flamer or sniper ) into the M3A1 clowncar and rolling around sniping and murdering everything. If you see this, you're off to a great start already. The clowncar is a terrible unit against Tier 2 because the 222 Light Scout Car is an insanely potent counter and you can field one in as short as 4 minutes. This gives the clown car less than 45 seconds of time to pester pioneers and capture a point. Once your 222 Scout Car is out, throw an upgraded weapon on it and drive it directly at the M3A1. It will kill it in a single burst. If possible, chase the snipers down until it is dangerous to proceed. The upgraded gun is eerily accurate against snipers (it must have a bonus against them, because it can't hit any other infantry at all) and you can often kill them depending on how wounded/fast the enemy reacts. If the enemy was using a flamer squad, take your M3A1 kill and back up, kiting the flamer squad until your Panzer Grens follow in from behind. Don't throw that upgunned Scout Car away! It can still harrass flamethrower engineers and can defeat a T-70 light tank! It's veteran ability can give you troop movements and allow you to position your troops for Soviet charges before they happen.

4 Conscripts Strategy
This Russian early game revolves around high capping power and scaling conscripts. Panzer Grenadiers destroy conscripts at close range and do not need to fear closing with them. However, the 222 Light Scout Car is not useful against this strategy. Indeed, the scout car will hit the enemy exactly as AT grenades complete if they're following Inverse's strategy. Instead, save 5 more fuel for the other halftrack. This halftrack can keep your Panzer Grenadiers on the field capping points and contesting territory. If you save munitions for a little longer it can become an unstoppable engine of death (AKA Flamethrower Halftrack) before AT guns hit the field. Shock the enemy with this unit, but always keep PGs and pioneers nearby.


Maxim Strategy
I am still encountering this strategy; it's can be a dangerous opponent. You will see early maxims in great numbers trying to seize map control. Thankfully he has to spend the first few minutes in his base building and deploying MGs. If you don't see enemy sectors being captured get greedier with your capping.

Build Panzer Grenadier -> Halftrack. The early arrival of your Halftrack will likely catch him off guard. Use this to load up PGs and drop them off behind or on top of the enemy MGs. You can maintain map control at critical locations with this.

A flamethrower halftrack is necessary ASAP. It destroys Maxim squads and can unseat them from buildings. This is something that no other unit can do. Be wary, the enemy already has Tier 2 tech and will produce an AT gun quickly. This is not really a problem unless you hit a mine. Do not try to rush the AT with the Halftrack. That could be mine territory. Instead, move your halftrack where-ever the AT gun is not. This stops his Maxim army from getting any territory and keeps them bottled up. He may attempt to get a fast T-70 out to "flip the script" on your halftrack. Get that Ostwind early!

Fighting against any strategy will require you to use the map to the fullest. This strategy uses elite units early on that must be deployed to high impact sectors. This means your first units should aim for key fuel points or sectors that cut off large swaths of enemy territory. Early tier 2 units are almost unstoppable within a short window. Use this window to punish conscripts and crush the enemy's map control by cutting off territory or taking crucial fuel away from them. Eliminating entire enemy squads is not uncommon if you press this advantage and your enemy gets underestimates you/gets careless.

Moving Forward

Round out your army with 2-3 more Panzer Grenadier squads. A medical bunker a home base can be invaluable. Fuel becomes less important after the tier 2 building is up; so focus on munitions with your capping pioneers. Your main forces should seek to deny fuel however. I would not usually advise replacing scout cars or halftracks if they are lost unless the enemy builds a new M3A1 or more snipers. If the enemy fields AT guns/Guards Rifle Infantry to deal with your light armor, invest in a mortar halftrack or flanking maneuvers with 2-3 Panzer Grens. Early game Russian AT must stand still to really function unless you stumble into 2-3 AT grenades. Don't stumble into 2-3 AT grenades. Support your armor.

Focus your fuel on getting up a tier 3/4 building by the flow of the game. To be honest, the large majority of my games end before Tier 3/4 can really swing into gear. I cannot really say which one is better. In larger matches (3v3s and 4v4s) the increased fuel that you will have from securing and the more inevitable gameplay tends to favor tier 4. Tier 3 has some nice units that are worthwhile for 1v1s and 2v2s. Upgraded conscript with PPSHs and Shock Troops will pose considerable threats to Panzer Grenadiers as the game moves forward. Investing into armor that can tackle infantry and support your Panzer Grenadiers in fights will be important against these high Anti-Infantry strategies. The Ostwind is really good when rushed after this strategy currently. It can kill T-70s, any infantry, and fight toe-to-toe with a T-34 until your PGs get Panzerschreks.

Commanders
I like red-neckerchief commander. He looks real snazzy, like a Nazi Freddy, and gives access to the Mortar Halftrack. This rounds out tier 2 well. Most commanders are shitty though, I don't really like any of them too much. His sector artillery would be good if sectors weren't so small or weird shaped. Stuka Smoke Barrage is neat, but smoke is wonky in this game. The Lieft Howitzer is actually very powerful and fucking expensive. You will probably never get one but they can be good?

I am still experimenting with Jager Infantry Tactics dude. The cloaking upgrade sounds terrible (untested though) but G43 rifles on Panzer Grenadiers might be nice against Russian PPSH spam. The problem is that this strategy requires so many munitions already that outfitting troops with G43s will probably leave you too open to T-34s overwhelming you.

If you are level 45+ the Assault Support Doctrine is overpowered. It's... yeah. Might as well just go with that one.

Example Replays:
Still gathering good replays, here are some examples as well as a nice 3v3 game where I sort of fight a fast tier 2 (not the finest execution though). Exceptional tank battles as well.
http://www.filedropper.com/coh2replaypackgermt2andmore
-Contains a somewhat one-sided 1v1 execution
-Contains an excellent 2v2 with diverse Russian strategies in play.
-Bonus 3v3!

Great guide!

I love strategics which makes you lose the first couple mins because you're doing something which gives your opponent the upper hand, but when you hit the point where you got the things you want man... I love that feeling.

Will give this one a try!

Had a fairly challenging 1v1 today.

http://www.coh2.org/replays/2909/german-fast-tier-2-1v1-example

This fellow had a very aggressive early game capture path. Most games are very docile in the first few minutes but you don't have to maintain territory long to get tier 2 operational. From there you can sweep in and retake land quickly. A gory mistake surely cost me some early advantage...

God, after the first game of Ostheer I played, that's exactly what I thought.

I love the T2 start as Wehr, it's really flexible and you have your first PG by the 3rd or 4th minute

What I do is I just build 1 extra pio giving me 2 pioneers, tech ASAP and then build T2 ASAP.

Then I go for 2 PGs and one scout car and a halftrack somewhere and the rest is dependent on what he builds, but staying in T2 for a lot of the game is perfectly viable. If you decrew support weapons, I tend to take them by using my pioneers and just reinforcing with the halftrack which is why the halftrack is essential.

One major disadvantage is the lack of indirect fire. This makes it very difficult to take on mg/AT although the mortar halftrack solves that somewhat? I just get the German artillery vehicle if I really need it. You'll definitely have the fuel by there

Your 1v1 example does not work to download atm, odd. I keep getting error. Also the pack that u have in ur post, the url is broken.

Thanks for the info tho.

tbh there are only so many ways a t2 rush can go wrong

1 atm conscripts with HTD and ppsh will overpower you through costeffective reinforcement and numbers , you ll have to dispatch them with bundlenades which will delay your halftrack

2 t1 with m3 + guards and an at nade will kill the flametruck

3 field gun + mine / at nade will kill as well .

4 t70 with bachtech to t1 for shocktroopers could work as well

Interesting. Also, the camo upgrade is okay - the G43 is better.

So, what about this strat in the Open Beta?

Is it dead? Lame? No one still using it?

I played a few game with the T2 rush and i'm quite satisfied.

The fast AC is deadly to clown car, and if escorted by PGs is not easy to destroy with AT nades. I understand that PGs have been nerfed, but stile they chew trough cons and guards and it's an even match with shock troops.

I think it's still a good strat, but i'm not one of the best player around. What's your opinion?

Tried it a few times. But good, agressive soviet players will put so much pressure on you (Cut-off on Kholodny) that you'll be starving for resources until you have several Panzer Grens + AC to take it back.

Still effective in my experience after the new patches. Even with HTD and ppsh your 222 + PGrens should rape that and any clown cars they may encounter. Just make sure you contest AOI and spread your pios to cap and stuff.

this is very different, but i like it because it reminds me of the PE builds in vcoh.

1v1 (as others have said) can be rough due to conscripts pushing map control, but this build is low fuel, high MP which isn't based on map control as much as rushing something like t3.

2v2 this build is amazing with a teammate going standard t1 into t3

I registered just to come on and say that this strat has worked flawlessly for two games in a row today (the first was against a standard AI for practice). I'm level 17 and I just whomped a level 38 player on Pripyat, 480 - 0.

In both games, I actually double-teamed the first encountered squad of enemy Engineers with two squads of Pios, which seemed to throw off their early rhythm. After that in the 2nd game, PGens, HTs, and an AC effectively countered all of his Conscript squads. He tried to counter with field guns and MGs, but attacking from 3 sides with flame Pios, an Ostwind, and PGens made quick work of them.

While I agree that this can be a strong strat and has worked for me, the 45MP replacement cost of a PG is just so high. I fundamentally disagree with your assessment of grenadiers. They do not fall off in the slightest - they are a mobile, sturdy unit and can deal high damage with LMG/G43s. With veterancy they become extremely potent. PGs are without doubt the superior infantry but at an extra 15MP per man lost and the initial cost of 360MP it doesn't weigh up well for me.

I watched Tycho's cast of your game, I have to say I'm very unsure about G43s with the standard assault rifles. Makes sense on a double schreck squad but I don't think they're as effective close in. I feel like this is a strat that will be shown up against Soviet players with good micro. It is very, very easy to see it coming and though a lot of people don't rate the Maxim (Tycho again I am looking at you, asshole) I feel like PGs would have little answer to a well micro'd machine gun supported by conscripts.

In the two games I've played against fast T2, I've done a Conscript spam but got T1 instead of T2 and supported with an MG. Suppression and molotovs shut down charging PG's very well. Snipers can also be really useful.

Ultimately its definitely a workable strat, but I won't be using it in my Ostheer games.

I agree: G43 are quite useless for PGs. You need ammos for flamer HT, schrecks and bundles.

I think yesterday I found a very weak spot in this strat.

The bulk of fast T2 is that you can fast regain control of the maps using PGs. Every time your PGs encounter cons, the cons die or are forced to retreat. In a few minutes you get total fuel control, go T3, PIV and then bye bye.

BUT

Yesterday the soviet guy vetted his cons at fast pace. In few minutes I started facing 3 stars cons, and, for what I saw, 3 stars cons beat PGs - even 1 star PGs. I couldn't regain control of the maps, i lost a lot of fuel, I've wasted a couple of Stug in a quite stupid way, he produced some big soviet tank and game over.

I found very difficult stopping his cons getting exp. Killing an entire 6 member squad before retreating it's impossibile if the soviet player is not distracted.

Any suggestion on this topic?

Okay, So I'm a big fan of the T2 start as everyone has guessed.

I've developed my own T2 strat and have not lost one game to it. (I'm only Lvl 21 but that's because I haven't played too many games).

What I do with the T2 start

Build
Pioneer -> T2 -> Muni Cache -> PGren -> Scout car

And so on based on what you need.

The idea of the early muni cache is that, at the beginning, if you just build the T2 building only, you'll be floating around 450 MP. Instead of floating that MP, I just use it to get a higher muni income which would be very useful for your first PG, which will need the muni for either a bundle, or your scout car which can get upgunned in case of clowncar. However, I only upgun the scout car IF I see a clowncar. If he's teched T2, the upgun's completely useless whereas the non-upgun can still do something against infantry.

The build afterwards should be anything that you need. I tend to keep in mind that, because I would have far less units than the soviets at the beginning, I'd actually want to keep my production queue full at all times so I might even consider 2 or 3 scout cars

Afterwards, when you have the time, tech to T3.

Strategy
If you've timed your production exactly, you should be able to get that PGren squad out within 3:30-3:40, which is very, very early.

The first PGren may get outgunned by a group of cons, so you must be really careful with it. Often, an unnotied bundle can tip the balance, but once you get the scout car again or another pioneer squad to support, you can probably push off 2 cons.

Afterwards, if you see clowncar, upgun one scout car to deal with it. However, you should always maintain one non-upgunned scout car to deal with snipers.

The scout cars need to be played passively after the first minute or 2 that it comes out. The Sov Anti tank nades can pretty much cripple the Scout car. However, if you bring up PGs to screen your scout cars, you should be able to deter any anti tank nades as if the cons try to nade the scout cars, they will be shredded by the PGrens.

The great thing about this strat IMO is that PGrens, scout cars can act as hard counters, whereas T1 strats normally don't hard counter much without significant muni - which is very difficult to get early game.

Hope this helps.

For an example

http://www.twitch.tv/hubewa/b/419367724

PS: Sorry about the video quality. Currently, I can't upload replays. When I can though, I will replace the link.

German Tier 2 Rush, what the heck ? in order to go for scout car, you need fuel (and also 70 munition if you want to use it to counter soviet's scout car). What's the point for not building anything in tier 1 ? you will lost your territery fast. Even you go for tier 1 first then tier 2, the time that u can build your scout car is not much different.

Moveover, PG in the early game huh ?, I don't think u need that. The good point in PG is that it can be equipped with RPG and in early game u don't have that 120 munition to spend. On the otherhand, pure grenadier has 2 type of bomb from the start, it can fight both infrantry and light vehicle, why do u bother getting PG ? Not mentioning that in early game, especially in 1v1, you need many squads to capture territory. Getting PG over G will only give u a disadvantage in resource early game.


....

Last thing, for hubewa, oh man please stop ths "Pioneer -> T2 -> Muni Cache ? -> PGren -> Scout car" Oh no !! in the early game u need as many units as possible, why build muni cache ? If u want more munition, u should simply build more pioneer and capture the point around u, u will get muni as well as 1 additional pioneer to spare. Even in the middle game, fuel cache or muni cache, both are not worth building. If u have manpower to spare, I suggest u use it to build more men and use that men to capture more enemie's territories. This will give u more fuel and munition and also decease enemy resource at the same time.

Moveover, PG in the early game huh ?, I don't think u need that. The good point in PG is that it can be equipped with RPG and in early game u don't have that 120 munition to spend. On the otherhand, pure grenadier has 2 type of bomb from the start, it can fight both infrantry and light vehicle, why do u bother getting PG ? Not mentioning that in early game, especially in 1v1, you need many squads to capture territory. Getting PG over G will only give u a disadvantage in resource early game.

PGs are phenomenal in the early game and wreck conscripts very cost-effectively. I disagree that their only "good point" is to get schreks. In fact, I'd discourage people from getting schreks if at all possible, as it's a risky and cost-ineffective way to fight armor.

Last thing, for hubewa, oh man please stop ths "Pioneer -> T2 -> Muni Cache ? -> PGren -> Scout car" Oh no !! in the early game u need as many units as possible, why build muni cache ? If u want more munition, u should simply build more pioneer and capture the point around u, u will get muni as well as 1 additional pioneer to spare

Munition caches/fuel depots are actually key to the game, IMO. You'll see top players get one the majority of the time. They allow you to convert manpower permanently into increased fuel or munitions. Building more units locks you into having those units (problematic if you have too many pioneers, grenadiers, or even MG teams) and increases your upkeep as well. Caches/depots are an excellent way to secure a win or to give yourself a fighting chance when you're resource starved.

Oh wow.

I thought this discussion had died!

My strategy has evolved a little here and there since writing this guide but I do use this strategy still.

@relayer That game Tycho casted was not actually with me! He referenced this guide quite a bit however that game starred CcArt as the German player.
It was cool to watch for me because he prioritized his early Pioneers very differently than mine.

@GeneralHell You're absolutely right that players who apply incredible pressure will make things hard. The strategy might not be advisable on easy cutoff maps. Keep in mind though that your fire superiority after ~4 minutes can turn the situation completely on it's head. If your forces are unstoppable then having an easy cutoff point means you can deny the enemy the entire map and let your pioneers slowly mop the map back to your color while you punish the enemy. That is almost the entire basis of the strategy.



As for the other person who was talking about Vet 3 Conscripts wrecking house this is something I have encountered too. One of the few games I've lost with this strategy was against someone who really used "Hit the Dirt!" to it's fullest ability. I'm really suspecting that doctrine is too strong, perhaps just that ability.

Munitions discipline is very crucial to this strategy. I lost that game because I spent too many munitions on bundled grenades. When it comes down to it against "Hit the Dirt!" your only chance of beating the enemy cost effectively is with the Flamethrower Halftrack. Don't let yourself waste too many munitions one way or another. If you see a clown car you should minimize damage and prepare an up-gunned 222 Scout Car of your own. Do not up-gun it preemptively though, those munitions will be better spent elsewhere!

As such maybe securing a point as a munitions point is ideal! I'm not sure. Honestly I'd prefer the fuel in most cases as having extra armor in the mid-game can really help you out...

Well. Considering that there is increased interest in this strategy I will endeavor to provide more replays and support for it.

Last thing, for hubewa, oh man please stop ths "Pioneer -> T2 -> Muni Cache ? -> PGren -> Scout car" Oh no !! in the early game u need as many units as possible, why build muni cache ? If u want more munition, u should simply build more pioneer and capture the point around u, u will get muni as well as 1 additional pioneer to spare. Even in the middle game, fuel cache or muni cache, both are not worth building. If u have manpower to spare, I suggest u use it to build more men and use that men to capture more enemie's territories. This will give u more fuel and munition and also decease enemy resource at the same time.

Initially, I just floated the manpower because, let's face it, the combat efficiencies of a pioneer is not worth getting a third one.

Let's see what a pioneer can do
a) Repair vehicles - at most times you've only got one scout car to repair
b) Build bunkers - you probably may only build one throughout the whole game unless you're really taking them down
c) Lay mines - certainly not going to happen in the early game because the German mines are expensive and the S-field takes ages to lay

So actually having a 3rd pioneer is far more counterproductive (IMO a manpower sink) than building a muni cache.

And trust me, when I've got my first PG out, I've got enough muni to throw a bundle and upgun my scout car - both which I've often needed to do.

Munitions discipline is very crucial to this strategy. I lost that game because I spent too many munitions on bundled grenades. When it comes down to it against "Hit the Dirt!" your only chance of beating the enemy cost effectively is with the Flamethrower Halftrack. Don't let yourself waste too many munitions one way or another. If you see a clown car you should minimize damage and prepare an up-gunned 222 Scout Car of your own. Do not up-gun it preemptively though, those munitions will be better spent elsewhere!

Try a muni cache? I don't think I really ran out of muni for quite a while after that.

Initially, I just floated the manpower because, let's face it, the combat efficiencies of a pioneer is not worth getting a third one.

If you keep a pioneer squad stationary in yellow cover against a charging conscript squad, you can, on average, reduce its health by about 33% (not the same as killing two guys though) before you reach the safe retreat threshold.

I'm not saying that's a lot or anything, but it can actually be a pretty decisive amount in the early game.