Corp's Fast T2 Strategy/Discussion

If you keep a pioneer squad stationary in yellow cover against a charging conscript squad, you can, on average, reduce its health by about 33% (not the same as killing two guys though) before you reach the safe retreat threshold.

I'm not saying that's a lot or anything, but it can actually be a pretty decisive amount in the early game.

Nowhere near as decisive as a bundle nade vs a conscript squad or an upgunned scout car vs a clown car.

If I have noticed anything in COH2, it is far harder to dodge nades - and that's because the battlefield graphics are really busy.

I understand that building more units generally = better - but MP and Pop wasted on an extra pio squad is just that - simply wasted.

And the fact that Pioneers can't take any territory with any aggression (A Cons squad will always stop them) does not help.

wow, fast reply

PGs are phenomenal in the early game and wreck conscripts very cost-effectively. I disagree that their only "good point" is to get schreks. In fact, I'd discourage people from getting schreks if at all possible, as it's a risky and cost-ineffective way to fight armor.


Munition caches/fuel depots are actually key to the game, IMO. You'll see top players get one the majority of the time. They allow you to convert manpower permanently into increased fuel or munitions. Building more units locks you into having those units (problematic if you have too many pioneers, grenadiers, or even MG teams) and increases your upkeep as well. Caches/depots are an excellent way to secure a win or to give yourself a fighting chance when you're resource starved.

Ok sir Adder, then in your opinion, what is the good point of PG that overcome G (worth spending more manpower on that) ? I think G upgraded with M42G can do good dmg to conscript too, they also have two type of bomb, but for your PG, if enemy use fire scout car, you need your own scout car to counter it, right ? ( u said it yourself that u don't prefer RPG)

Caches/ Depots is up to u, but I prefer to capture more territery to gain that. My additional pioneer will be equiped with flamethrower and be put in the front row of war anyway in middle - late game. Flamethrower + pioneers are something u should put into the war, so that u can repair vehicle + build campfire + and protect your troops when enemie's infratry try to move close.

Initially, I just floated the manpower because, let's face it, the combat efficiencies of a pioneer is not worth getting a third one.

Let's see what a pioneer can do
a) Repair vehicles - at most times you've only got one scout car to repair
b) Build bunkers - you probably may only build one throughout the whole game unless you're really taking them down
c) Lay mines - certainly not going to happen in the early game because the German mines are expensive and the S-field takes ages to lay

So actually having a 3rd pioneer is far more counterproductive (IMO a manpower sink) than building a muni cache.

And trust me, when I've got my first PG out, I've got enough muni to throw a bundle and upgun my scout car - both which I've often needed to do.

I know, It's because u skip tier 1 so u don't know where to spend your excessive manpower, building 3rd pioneer is a waste u think so u go with munition cache. Poor thing

I suggest if u really want to do tier 1 skipping, at least save manpower for PG. Building munition cache will also make your engineer lose the time to capture more territory while building it. I am talking about 1v1 that there are many capture points avalible for both team to cap. Therefore, capturing as many points as possible is a key in to gain advantage early in this game.

I bet u did not play 1v1 much, u always play 2v2 3v3 4v4, don't u ? so that you gain resource becuz your team cap them for u. Try to play more 1v1 man, u will know that if u reach the capturing point late, not only u will lose point to enemy but also find out that many good-spot buildings will have conscipt in there too. It will be double hard to take it back.

I know, It's because u skip tier 1 so u don't know where to spend your excessive manpower, building 3rd pioneer is a waste u think so u go with munition cache. Poor thing

I suggest if u really want to do tier 1 skipping, at least save manpower for PG. Building munition cache will also make your engineer lose the time to capture more territory while building it. I am talking about 1v1 that there are many capture points avalible for both team to cap. Therefore, capturing as many points as possible is a key in to gain advantage early in this game.

I bet u did not play 1v1 much, u always play 2v2 3v3 4v4, don't u ? so that you gain resource becuz your team cap them for u. Try to play more 1v1 man, u will know that if u reach the capturing point late, not only u will lose point to enemy but also find out that many good-spot buildings will have conscipt in there too. It will be double hard to take it back.

I've played this strat in 1v1. Out of the 7-8 times I've used it, I've only lost once.

And ultimately, if you go PG -> Scout car, after the scout car is finished (Most russkis, I find don't tech AT nades so your scout car can harrass cons in the first few minutes it comes out quite nicely), you can get your 2nd PG straight away, so I don't see the problem at all!

If you want, check this out. BTW, that's a 1v1

http://www.twitch.tv/hubewa/b/419367724

And also, personally, I disregard anything for 2v2+. If it's fit for 1v1, I will talk about it. Anything fit for 1v1 in COH2 is fit for 2v2s. Anything only for 2v2s tends to be gimmicky at this stage.

ok hubewa, I already watched your vid. It's not bad for this strat allowing u to build fast scout car and PG to surprise enemy. Anyway, the fact that u could pressure him is because your opponent did not know how good PG is in a short range, also he did not use HM so u can get close to his troops easily. BTW, your style is totally different from me.

Let's move back to our topic, after watching your vid, I have captured my screenshot of the last 1v1 game I've played with my friend in order to compare resource with yours at 3:00 here

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/5744/sv47.jpg

As u can see I got

+32 munition
2 pioneer, 2 HM

And I were about to capture more munition and fuel point in a couple sec.

Yours at 3:00 is
+37 muntion
2 pioneer, and coming PG

As you seen, the difference in our munition is not much different but I have 2 HM ready to battle and take more capturing point. Anyway, we play different stragtgy so I will not say your stragtegy is bad or else. One thing that I want to suggest u do is that your first vehicle should be half truck upgraded flame. It can do much better job at killing infrantry. And if opponent builds his scout car, then u build your own scout car + upgraded to counter him. If he does not, then you have no need to build scout car.

I'm using this strategy too right now. My BO includes a flamer on a Pioneer right after the scout car is out, as it allows my pioneer to support my first panzer grenadier squad.

The only thing I hate is german generals, I hope it will get better when I get access to the rank 45 general with its supply truck and Tiger.

ok hubewa, I already watched your vid. It's not bad for this strat allowing u to build fast scout car and PG to surprise enemy. Anyway, the fact that u could pressure him is because your opponent did not know how good PG is in a short range, also he did not use HM so u can get close to his troops easily. BTW, your style is totally different from me.

Let's move back to our topic, after watching your vid, I have captured my screenshot of the last 1v1 game I've played with my friend in order to compare resource with yours at 3:00 here

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/5744/sv47.jpg

As u can see I got

+32 munition
2 pioneer, 2 HM

And I were about to capture more munition and fuel point in a couple sec.

Yours at 3:00 is
+37 muntion
2 pioneer, and coming PG

As you seen, the difference in our munition is not much different but I have 2 HM ready to battle and take more capturing point. Anyway, we play different stragtgy so I will not say your stragtegy is bad or else. One thing that I want to suggest u do is that your first vehicle should be half truck upgraded flame. It can do much better job at killing infrantry. And if opponent builds his scout car, then u build your own scout car + upgraded to counter him. If he does not, then you have no need to build scout car.

Seeing Grens/MGs/Mortars cost the same, I'll lump your BO into the same group.

The initial surprise is what you need, and if he went T2, I'd just get a HT and put PGs behind the MG for a flank.

I think I've said this before, but I find Russian T2 more problematic to deal with than T1.

And the 3 minute mark isn't particularly important, especially on larger maps (there's only so much you can cap and pioneers can be used to stall capping - that's kind of a new feature I don't exactly like - I don't think I've ever seen Pioneers stopping rifles from capping at any point in VCoH, but for simplicity, it can't be changed)- and I consider Priyapat to be large - let alone (one of the really large 2 player maps - I forgot what it's called). It's only really an issue on Kholdony which is far smaller (that's where IMO, T1 start would be better).

And personally, this strat, I find, gets muni heavy as you keep on throwing bundles. You want to get those bundles out as you want to preserve manpower - PGs are expensive but remember - this strat is quite like a PE strat in terms of great firepower but expensive reinforce for infantry.

Eventually, beyond the 3 minute mark - you'll have quite a lot of muni flowing in as you cap other points - enough to get schrecks when you need them, bundles when you need them, arty strikes, Ostruppen etc

BTW, I've lost to it again since my last post. This strat tends to work well with Ostruppen as you tend to get a free squad if you assault and the Ostruppen can recrew all those AT guns or support weapons the soviets leave behind.

The ultimate value of this strat is the shock value - most ppl would expect gren spam and will spam cons/clown car in response.

They would not expect PGs chasing them down. Even the scout car can be used against conscripts when it first comes out! The HT is great, but it's a huge muni impost in the early game when your PGs/Scout car needs that muni more.

The ultimate value of this strat is the shock value - most ppl would expect gren spam and will spam cons/clown car in response.

They would not expect PGs chasing them down. Even the scout car can be used against conscripts when it first comes out! The HT is great, but it's a huge muni impost in the early game when your PGs/Scout car needs that muni more.

You're right, and that's why I said your style and mine were totally different. I don't use PG'bomb so I have munition enough for Fire HT. I still can deal with Soviet's scout car by grenade from granadiers. (but normally I will go for SC first if I see Soviet SC)

Anyway, it's just that we have different style to play, different strat comes to different strategy and different resource's distribution.

The ultimate value of this strat is the shock value - most ppl would expect gren spam and will spam cons/clown car in response.

They would not expect PGs chasing them down. Even the scout car can be used against conscripts when it first comes out! The HT is great, but it's a huge muni impost in the early game when your PGs/Scout car needs that muni more.

I'd disagree with this.

The Scout Car is a waste of fuel and if the enemy does not built a M3A1 Scout Car. The enemy will get AT grenades which deal about ~60% of the scout car's life to it. It's not useless but you can make better use of the fuel.

Pushing out a fast halftrack instead lets:

1) Your early Panzer Grenadier squad can reinforce in the field no matter what happens to it, keeping this crucial unit combat effective and killing Russians.

2) Protects your first Panzer Grenadier squad from flamethrower M3A1s and snipers by allowing them to hide inside the halftrack until a quick building Scout Car can reinforce them.

3) Can be upgraded to Flamethrower halftrack early if the enemy has done hardcore Conscript strategy like the Inverse-4 Conscript build. Punish and wipe out squads early before they have vehicles and AT guns to work with.

Also I most certainly am a proponent of 3 pioneers at the start in a 1v1. Many Russians are actually building with their first squad which lets your pioneers quickly turn the map blue. Even if they don't the extra capping power of the third pioneer is crucial. Your Panzer Grenadiers should not stop to capture anything if they can be fighting. Pioneers sweep in behind them and capture territory while they murder the Russians. Having more pioneers available allows you to do this more effectively while you cut off territory.

The level 45 Doctrine is overpowered and most certainly helps this strategy.

For anyone new to the strategy I've got an up to date replay. It's the only game that I've had that was challenging enough to test the strategy lately: http://www.coh2.org/replays/4362/1v1-fast-tier-2-example-ostheer

I suppose that's kind of true, you do want HT out ASAP.

However, a hard counter to snipers and M3A1 is a lot better than a mobile reinforce point because PGs initially can't counter the flamer clowncar and they definitely can't counter a well microed sniper. And the halftrack certainly isn't fast enough to chase down snipers or M3A1, unlike the scoutcar. Like the VCoH bike, I would gladly sacrifice a scout car to kill a sniper.

A scout car, however, can not only harass enemy unitsthey also provide a decent amount of damage. Provided they are screened properly by PGs, they can't be AT naded without the risk of a loss of a whole Con squad.

I haven't been playing much of late due to exams, but afterwards, I'll give a bit more feedback. The last game I played with my strat though, I lost because I didn't screen my scout car properly + I derped with my tanks.

BTW, a T2 Ost start, just for the others out there (not you Corps), is a strat that
a) Doesn't really need bulletins - it punches very hard if your opponent does his usual T1 stuff
b) Requires a bit more skill than the general T1 Gren Spam - which is still potent, but can't produce as devastating wins as T2 start

Heh. I doubt that any strategy needs Bulletins! They're so marginal and honestly pointless.

That being said the two for Panzer Grenadiers are the best I've seen for infantry. 9% Veterancy bonus ain't shabby. 5% accuracy is pretty much 5% more damage on an already dangerous unit. They're still utterly minor but better than like, 5% more range on Bundled Grenades like some other Bulletins.

My third slot will probably be filled by something good for the 250 Halftrack if I ever get anything good for it. It has the generic +2% hp right now.



As for our strategy differences, I think we more or less agree. I have sacrificed up-gunned cars for sniper kills before; usually chasing them after killing their M3A1 shell. I find that the Halftrack is the best first buy. One of the strengths of the Scout Car is that it's so cheap and builds so fast. Take advantage of that and use it as a reaction buy.

The biggest weakness to this is that the enemy could get rather clever. If they see that you're Tier 2 with your first Grens and Halftrack they could maybe lay a mine and try and bait your first Scout Car over it with their juicy sniper filled M3A1. The build time of the Halftrack would give them more space for this timing. It's very marginal. Whenever you're playing Tier 2 it's usually a good idea to keep tabs on their Engineers anyways because you're fielding so many light vehicles that can get utterly fucked by mines. That's a bit of an advanced tactic that's hard to really accomplish though.

Heh. I doubt that any strategy needs Bulletins! They're so marginal and honestly pointless.

That being said the two for Panzer Grenadiers are the best I've seen for infantry. 9% Veterancy bonus ain't shabby. 5% accuracy is pretty much 5% more damage on an already dangerous unit. They're still utterly minor but better than like, 5% more range on Bundled Grenades like some other Bulletins.

My third slot will probably be filled by something good for the 250 Halftrack if I ever get anything good for it. It has the generic +2% hp right now.



As for our strategy differences, I think we more or less agree. I have sacrificed up-gunned cars for sniper kills before; usually chasing them after killing their M3A1 shell. I find that the Halftrack is the best first buy. One of the strengths of the Scout Car is that it's so cheap and builds so fast. Take advantage of that and use it as a reaction buy.

The biggest weakness to this is that the enemy could get rather clever. If they see that you're Tier 2 with your first Grens and Halftrack they could maybe lay a mine and try and bait your first Scout Car over it with their juicy sniper filled M3A1. The build time of the Halftrack would give them more space for this timing. It's very marginal. Whenever you're playing Tier 2 it's usually a good idea to keep tabs on their Engineers anyways because you're fielding so many light vehicles that can get utterly fucked by mines. That's a bit of an advanced tactic that's hard to really accomplish though.

Heh, yeah, but my point is you can just put Grenadier Bulletins and not build a single one for this strat - it's completely fine Whereas bulletins are useful for the gren vs con battles, they're not very useful for cons in PGs vs cons.

I kind of agree with what you've said, except the thing is, against M3 builders, they will always tend to Feature Clowncars in the early build so you don't exactly want to get pushed back by the clowncar after you take it for a while with your PGs. So IMO, a hard counter would be better. I only upgun when I see the clowncar. But even a non-upgunned scout car can push off a clown car. And the scout cars are pretty fast so they can even harass cons better than the HTs

That said, I've never tried HT first so I could try that I guess.

And about what you said at the end, the thing is this tends to feature in VCoH with the M8 and the Puma - you don't want to step on a mine so you get sweepers (that's if they lay mines which most players don't for now)? BTW, in VCoH, I've baited bikes/jeeps into mines before so, at least, the last problem is nothing new in CoH.

I've made some updates to the guide. Been seein' some Maxim spam as a starter for the Russians so I threw in a section on how I've shut that down.

I've actually used Maxim spam against other Tier 2 players and it can be really dangerous as it becomes really hard for your PGs to move around the map if the enemy gets any positioning on you.

It's a Russian strategy that I'm starting to favor a bit in my own games. I still feel like Tier 2 rush gives you a good start for beating any strategy I've met yet though.

I've made some updates to the guide. Been seein' some Maxim spam as a starter for the Russians so I threw in a section on how I've shut that down.

I've actually used Maxim spam against other Tier 2 players and it can be really dangerous as it becomes really hard for your PGs to move around the map if the enemy gets any positioning on you.

It's a Russian strategy that I'm starting to favor a bit in my own games. I still feel like Tier 2 rush gives you a good start for beating any strategy I've met yet though.

How do you deal with quick T-70S? Had a match were the guy got one at 6 minutes on kolodny winter completely wreaked me. http://www.coh2.org/replays/4366/6-minute-t-70

How do you deal with quick T-70S? Had a match were the guy got one at 6 minutes on kolodny winter completely wreaked me. http://www.coh2.org/replays/4366/6-minute-t-70

The up gunned scout car can knock out a T-70.

The up gunned scout car can knock out a T-70.

if someone has replay of that that would be nice. because every time I have seen it die just before killing it or only killing it after something else damaged it. Do you have to keep the ac at range and hit in the butt or what?

An upgunned scout car versus T-70 is not a great fight for the scout car unless you've got like Vet 2-3 or incredible rear armor shots.

The best way to deal with it is Panzerschreks. Grab a Pak40 maybe. It will almost certainly come hunting for your Flamethrower Halftrack so you could trap it with a Teller mine.

Really though, how'd he get one at six minutes? Once your Panzer Grens come out make sure you hit those cutoffs and fuel points hard. He really shouldn't get those kind of supplies.

An upgunned scout car versus T-70 is not a great fight for the scout car unless you've got like Vet 2-3 or incredible rear armor shots.

The best way to deal with it is Panzerschreks. Grab a Pak40 maybe. It will almost certainly come hunting for your Flamethrower Halftrack so you could trap it with a Teller mine.

Really though, how'd he get one at six minutes? Once your Panzer Grens come out make sure you hit those cutoffs and fuel points hard. He really shouldn't get those kind of supplies.

I'm pretty sure he cut unit production and planted two fuel caches. I was really surprised about it myself I got a pak and Panzerschreks. The pak and my ac killed the first one, but then he got another and some shock troops and my Panzerschreks couldn't kill it and deal with the shock troops. I probably needed to do a better job of keeping my pak and Panzerschreks together because he kept hitting my fuel in the bottom and my pak was in the middle.

It's a shame the game has gone "pre-load" and I can't watch the replay. Sounds odd.

Whenever the Soviets decide to cede early game pressure for tech you can usually sweep over the map with your pioneers and get excellent resources yourself.

A fast Ostwind can save you a lot of headaches after you get your core forces from Tier 2. It takes care of T-70s and can even fight a T-34 for a while (Not necessarily winning).